Cutera (Nd:YAG) 21 times...

Hair Removal Methods Laser hair removal
1

Hi, I have had about 21 treatments, half with a starlux palomar light combination treatment, and half with the Cutera. Maybe 4 of the primary treatments were not effective because I bleached in between treatments, not knowing that would affect anything. Treatments have been focused on my upper lip.

I have had okay reduction results… up to a point. Maybe 50-60% of the hair.

I’m probably a type III

I posted a thread a while back in a thread called “Diagnose me: pictures & my hair and laser history”

I thought I’d improved, but looking at those pictures I think it may have gotten a little worse since then! …Maybe it’s been longer in between treatments.

I have gotten a few treatments on my chin now as well, and I am positive that that has gotten a little worse. I’m a 20y old student with little money, and this is extremely frustrating.

Has my history of temporary removal methods affected my hair so it won’t go lighter? Should I try electrolysis? I usually wait 4-6weeks in between treatments. Should I wait longer. Settings are high at 24 or something on the Cutera. Talking to my laser technician, she said they could double the setting in order to get results. Is that dangerous?

Thanks for your support!!

p.s. previous thread URL:
http://www.hairtell.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/40154/Diagnose_me_pictures_my_hair_a.html#Post40154

2

On such small areas it nearly always is advisable to go for electrolysis. Also after 21 treatments I thinkn we can safely say that your not going to get any more of a reduction. This is generally backed up by the fact that most people usually need between 4-8 treatments (8 being the max in nearly all cases) to get a successful reduction, if the laser is effective on the hair you have.

The female face is also the prime area where hair can become stimulated, basically darker, coarser and longer. If you think you are suffering from these reactions and stop now. Plucking and waxing the face can make the hair stronger and tougher as the increased blood flow to the traumatised area can lead ot increased growth. Hormone rich blood to hair, is what fertiliser is to grass.

Side note: I just stopped to look at the pics you put on the forum. My personal opinion: Quit the Laser and the IPL and go for electrolysis. The hair is way to fine and will most likely be stimulated or continue to be stimulated further.

As Dee said in your previous post, an electrolysis could make easy work of this. Where are you located? You want a skilled electrolgoist with good equipment and you can say goodbye to those pesky hairs.

Regards,
Benji

3

50% reduction is not a good result after 21 treatments.

It sounds like:

  • Your hair is too fine for laser, especially with a Yag and at such a low setting
  • You need electrolysis. Stop wasting your money on laser for such a small area with probably hair that’s too fine for it.
4

People put so much trust in lasering their upper lip. This is so excessive, not to mention expensive, I’m sure.

Why is electrolysis always the last resort or the thing that people reluctantly pursue? We have had posters in the past not take advise well even after one is told that they need electrolysis, they don’t believe us and continue chasing the light beam. Laser is not faster or better for the upper lip. It is not a sure bet like electrolysis. It is not less painful. It cannot see lighter hairs like electrolysis can. It is not suitable for certain skin colors. It is not less expensive. BUT…! Laser is the sexy little thing, unlike that old lady called “electrolysis”.

5

Hey Everyone! Thanks for your replies—so fast and so thoughtful.

I live in Vancouver, BC, Canada. I welcome recommendations for places to go.

I wonder if I emphasize the information that, upon third examination those priorly-taken pics, I have WAY more hair than is visible in those, would you still recommend electrolysis?

I have maybe 50+ dark hairs per square centimetre. And that’s just one hair cycle…

If so, I certainly am willing to try it.

6

Electrolysis is nearly always better for the upper lip, this is because it will not stimulate those fine vellus hairs you have on your lip and it is also a very small area. I think it’s even more appropiate to use electrolysis if you think some hair may have been stimulated. After 21 sessions you pretty much aren’t going to get much more of a reduction either. Also looking at your skin type the Cutera isn’t even the most suitable laser for you.

I have a vague recollection of someone in BC that has been recommended, but can’t think of them off the top of my head. Run a search, using the search feature in the right hand corner, and it should come up with a couple.

So hey, as Dee said, give electrolysis a try. Let the old girl feel sexy again :wink:

Regards,
Benji

7

Can you hear me laughing in Ohio, Benji? Now, that last line was just too cute!

White Ginger: As far as still recommending electrolysis for what you describe, let me say this: It is the only option you have! If you truly desire permanent hair removal you need electrolysis or you will just have to live with and disguise your problem for ever. Fifty hairs per square centimeter is NOTHING for a skilled, professional electrologist to handle. If she/he has the quality equipment that we so patiently emphasize daily on hairtell and KNOWS how to use it properly, you will get what you are paying for within 9-12 months, generally speaking. If she is really slow and you go in less often, then we are talking as much as 18 months until you are free of offending hair.

I know there have been an electrologist ot two mentioned in your locale. I’ll do a search for you, but if you have time, try doing a search for yourself as well. This is all about finding a person adept at what they do, so get as many consults as possible. Compare sensation, healing time, equipment used, hygiene (office and personal)of the persons you get sample treatments with. It’s worth all the effort because you may decide not to stop at the lip.

Unlike many comments I hear on these consumer sites, electrolysis is not only for small areas. Many electrologists do arms, backs and legs - anywhere at all - and finish within a year or 18 months. Some are still happily stuck in the mud, but we salute them for what they can do as well. Don’t judge the general term electrolysis by one electrologist, as we all can deliver permanent hair removal if the proceedure is performed correctly. Just get some sample treatments and ask questions. Reading hairtell and hairfacts gets you off to a good start to know what to ask and what to observe for…

Dee

8

We are not recommending electrolysis only because you have relatively small amount of hair. We’re recommending it because it’s the only option for fine hair. Laser doesn’t really work on that type of hair. It doesn’t matter how many treatments you have. Electrolysis is the way to go. There are recommendations on this forum for electrologists in your area if you run a search. One recommendation I have seen in Vancouver was: Athena Boutsakis, RE, CCE, CPE
Phone: 1-604-320-3357
E-mail: [email protected]

9

I am going to have to disagree with this one. I looked at your photos and laser hair removal will easily treat those hairs. Of course, you do need a good laser. A poor laser won’t work but neither will poor electrolysis. But a good laser can easily treat those hairs.

Electrolysis of course is an option.

I completely agree that very fine hair will not respond to laser. But upper lips are an area which responds to laser quite well. And as far as stimulating hair after more treatment. The upper lip is not an area where that happens. Not to say that it can’t but it isn’t area that I see. In fact, it is quite common to see someone who has had 6 or 7 treatments with hair remaining on their cheeks and chin but all the hair on their upper lip gone.

My sense here is that the collective wisdom on this site isn’t experienced enough to judge what is truly too fine to be treated by laser. Unfortunately, it is difficult to tell and I do agree that there are people who make claims for laser that are untrue. We have to remember that laser hair removal is difficult especially if you don’t know what you are doing or using a laser that is less effective. But that doesn’t mean that just because provider A wasn’t effective that someone else won’t be.

I agree with the statement that electrolysis can treat a much greater range of hairs than laser. But I disagree that electrolysis is always the better option.

10

Here’s a question for you to answer, sslr, and by the way, I always enjoy your posts and thanks for participating.

For the upper lip, how can laser be better when there are all colors of hair present on an average upper lip? As a practicing electrologist, I see up close, with 5X magnification, a variety of coarse, medium and fine accelerated dark hair, blond hair, white hair, clear hair, light brown hair and sometimes red hair. If laser can seek and destroy dark hair only, then great, but one STIll needs an electrologist to complete the job to destroy the other colors and structures. So, why not start with electrolysis, the sure bet? This would surely be more cost effective as well. I think this is what other posters and myself have been advising for various reasons.

Also, when an area is lased, one must wait for a week to three weeks for the hair to shed. With electrolysis, one looks better immediately because the individual hairs are treated and lifted out. We go for the thicker hairs first, which dramatically improves the area and makes a person feel hopeful and confident the day they have a treatment.

We’ve had this discussion before and I don’t think my comments were addressed, but I hope you will help me out this time by explaining how laser can possibly be the best answer for an average upper lip, especially for perimenpausal women and post menapausel women who exhibit all colors and structures of hair? Younger women usually present with fine, dark hair, but they too have many different shades of light noticable hair and some thicker structures.

Electrolysis is the best option for all people of color (or no color), with all colors and textures of hair. Immediate relief is noticed, which is very uplifting to the woman who is ashamed of her upper lip hair. I fail to understand how you are seeing so many perfect candidates when I don’t. Maybe I’m missing something you know, but haven’t included in your posts, so I’m hoping you can explain this to me.

Have you actually looked at virgin upper lip hair under suitable magnification?

Thanks sslhr,

Dee

11

Again, thanks for all this input, Benji, Dee, lagirl, sslhr.

One more question—a little while ago I bought a laser package of 6 treatments and still have 2 remaining. Should I continue? On lip and chin?

Is it harmful or redundant to be doing laser and electrolysis at the same time?

12

Not really. I have been advised that many laserologists, who are also electrologists, perform a laser treatment and then immediately treat the white, blond or gray hairs with electrolysis. Maybe some laser/electrologists types reading this board would like to comment???

13

I am happy to have this conversation with you. My guess is that we probably agree philosophically but have some differences in the details. Which is of course where the devil is.

But before we get started, two questions.

  1. What kind of light source does you magnification use?

  2. How much time and money does it take to treat a typical upper lip with electrolysis, both flash and thermolysis?

Thanks,

14

My magnification is separate from my light source. I use surgical magnification from Orascoptic Research. My light source is halogen.

Cost is dependent on amount of hair, hair growth cycles and client compliance to come in as advised.

Generally, most clients need between 8-12 appointments spread out over a year. Some severe cases need as many 20 appointments spread out over a year to 14 months. Cost is under $500. This is for my practice and I am not speaking for other electrologists that are faster or slower than me or who use different equipment and techniques.

I haven’t used flash thermolysis for about nine years now. I use microflash thermolysis and soon I will be using picoflash thermolysis. For some cases I use blend and microflash. Sessions are between 20-30 minutes and they get shorter between months 4-6 and onward.

Dee

15

First, I am not sure what to make of your opinion that you commonly see many different shades and colors of hairs in the typical upper lip.

I haven’t looked recently at upper lips under magnification (we own four dermatological lights). But I am near sighted and can see quite well close up and I do take photos of upper lips with a camera that can take great close ups and I am not sure that I see what you report. Unless perhaps we are seeing the same but just interpreting differently? I do see hairs that have varying shades, but not to that significance (and I am not including vellus hairs). What I consider the hairs that I see to be varying shades of dark tend to be hairs in varying stages of growth. With the mature terminal hairs being the darkest.

One thing that I notice is that the source of the light has a significant impact on how hair looks. Hair is made of a shaft with melanin imbedded in the shaft (I am sure you know this. I’m writing this for others reading it) and the color is really a complex interplay between reflected light coming from multiple depths and bifringence (which may account for some of the color). And the source has a strong impact. For example, it is not uncommon to look at hair that appears to be quite fine and light and then to look at the exact same hair on a photograph and see the hair being darker than it looks in real life. My sense is that the color temperature of the light has a definite impact on the perceived color of the hair. So for example, daylight (color of a flash) is somewhere around 5700 kelvin whereas a halogen bulb usually sits around 3000 kelvin. A halogen bulb is warmer than daylight. It is something we don’t notice but it may be what is making your hair look less dark than in essence it really is.

At the end of the day, the proof has to be in the pudding. Whereas I would say that treating a sideburn or cheek is very difficult, treating an upper lip is generally easy. Most people we treat do have great results with their upper lips. There are the occasional few who are more challenging (generally because their hair is very fine and light brown) but they are the exception. Truly most people have great results and are quite happy after 4-6 treatments.

So let’s look at the cost effectiveness of laser hair removal versus electrolysis. We charge at full price for 6 treatments $295. We then charge $19 for supplemental treatments after 6. Now most people don’t pay this. They actually pay less because they take advantage of sales (though I would prefer to see them pay full price since I have salaries and expenses). But let’s assume full price to make it fair, one can have 16 treatments for $500. This is the original 6 txts and then 10 supplemental treatments. For someone who is going to respond to laser hair removal on their upper lip this is generally more than enough treatments by about 8 to 10. For someone who has trouble getting rid of the last few hairs, this may be what they need. And this doesn’t assume that we comp them for treatments when they don’t have good enough results (which is something we do when appropriate).

So someone with lots of hair can actually walk out of our center after only 6 treatments with no hair or practically no hair. Now I do get the occasional woman who walks in and tells me that she sees hairs under her 10 power magnifying mirror. It can be a challenge to make them understand that no one else in the world can see the hairs they are referring to and they almost always admit that they started with many more coarse hair. When you take in to account not only the price but the amount of time they lose compared to electrolysis. 6 treatments at about 10 minutes for the treatment from start to finish (assuming travel costs the same) is quite cost effective compared to more treatments that are longer in time.

I actually think that the most cost effective approach is to combine laser and electrolysis. I am actually trying to figure out how to do this but it is a little easier said than done. Electrolysis is a completely different skill set from what we have and I am not going to add something unless we can do it properly. But I figure the most cost effective approach (for any site not just the upper lip) is to use laser hair removal for the first 5-7 treatments to effectively remove what hair you can remove with it and then to switch to electrolysis to complete and finish the treatments. Laser hair removal is great at de-bulking the hair. Far better than electrolysis (I don’t care how fast you are). But electrolysis is better at finishing the treatments (which is not laser’s forte). We spend a lot of time and effort getting rid of the last few pesky hairs. Of course, all this is assuming that the client has hair that will respond to lasers. If the hair won’t respond, then electrolysis is the only option.

Does this kind of answer you questions (from my perspective)? Or am I missing something?

16

Thank you for your patience on this subject and I take you at your word as far as what your client outcomes are. Unless you can actually observe a modern, professional electrologist in action, using microflash or picoflash thermolysis when starting treatment on an upper lip, you probably will not be fully able to understand just how fast one can permanently remove any color or structure of hair on any color of skin. That’s okay. I believe you are an honest and caring professional and yes, I think you addressed this pretty well, however, we will have to disagree on differing colors of hair that is present on an upper lip in order not to belabor the point about lip hair any further.

Thanks sslhr,

Dee

17

I have indian skin tone… will electrlysis scar or cause breakouts on my upperlip?

18

Well done electrolysis will not scar or breakout indian skin. You must do your proper post treatment, of course, but well done electrolysis just leaves you with hairless skin.

This past week, I removed 1,000 hairs from an Indian woman, most of which was in the area of the upper lip and she looks great.

19

If I had 2 sessions left from a prepaid package; I would use them instead of loosing them but I would try to have them done at higher joules. I would ask for a free test patch to see how the skin react. I just think your settings were kind of low but maybe your skin would burn otherwise (that’s why I would do a test patch).

Nothing prevents you after to switch to electrolysis.

20

Hi kelle.

Electrologists work on Indian skin all the time. This is not about the process called electrolysis, this is about performing electrolysis correctly so that one gets a fabulous outcome. This is highly possible and probable if you hook up with a modern, professional electrologist who cares about your struggle.

ELECTROLYSIS IS FOR PEOPLE OF COLOR, OR NO COLOR. It doesn’t matter if you have Indian skin or Irish skin. ELECTROLYSIS CAN DESTROY ANY COLOR OF HAIR. It doesn’t matter if it is dark, fine hair or coarse, curly red hair.

Personally speaking, I see many Indian, Pakistani and Somoli women in my locale. The hair problems they present with are absolute nightmares with ingrown hairs, inflammation, thick hair, some deep, some shallow and severe hyperpigmentation. I saw an Indian woman this past Saturday. She was a mess when I first met her 18 months ago with hair all over her neck and chin areas, especially. The ingrowns were scary. We got busy with the job at hand. She did her part and I did my part and she is now hairfree. Her skin tones are evening out and she’s nearly 90% free of the hyperpigmentation so far. What a fabulous transformation. She’s very happy. She told me her friends keep complimenting her on how fresh her skin looks and want to know what she’s done, but she is still too embarrassed to tell them that she had electrolysis. Basically, our time this Saturday was spent getting a few straggly hairs here and there and she has now decided to get more serious about her upper and under lip hair now. She will be successful there as well.

All this was done using microflash thermolysis, gold probes sized to match the diameter of the hair. She’s a fabulous client who intellectually understands what she had to do to be successfull. I just love her!

Electrologists are all very different in their equipment and modality choices, so you will need to get consults and short treatments before you settle on someone you trust. I can only share my stories and tell you what works well for my clients, but there are many professional electrologists that will do it their way and you will still be successful.

I would go on the hunt and be done with upper lip hair for good. I hope you are lucky enough to have a well-trained professional electrologist with good equipment working near your home. I know what the possibilites are for people chosing electrolysis, but, unfortunately, there are not enough skilled, modern electrologists to handle the demand worldwide.

Dee