I have had discussion and trials with two therapists for removal of hair from full beard line. Mainly white left asI had IPL, but lts left to do.
One therapist uses a JB themoblend machine (Neil Blok design)and they use a system of applying DC at level fopr time required to achieve epilation and units needed. They add a pulse (about 8 seconds) of HF in the middle third of the treatment time to push the lye into the follicle.
The other therapist uses a Hinkle machine where they run the DC and HF together for the whole time till hair epilates and finish with 3 sec DC only. The DC setting is set by dividing the unit hair rate (eg 80 unit hair) by the time to epilate with HF only. Eg 80 unit div by 20 sec gives a DC setting of 0.4.
With the Hinkle machine I got bad marking, like little red burns at each hair follicle still very very evident after 2 days.
The JB machine trial gave me a red skin which they treated with a cat roller and it was looking good within 8 hours.
Can someone with more experience comment on these two methods please.
NatalieS;
I have been trained and have used blend on a few clients, however, most choose a different modality after I show examples.
80 units of lye is normally reserved for only the most very heavy hair types. It seems as if both places are taking at least 20 seconds per hair for treatment. Three times 8 seconds = 24 seconds. The amount of RF energy is not explained for either of these examples.
The Hinkle operator is going on Units of Lye=80 which means her Galvanic current should be set at about 0.4 ma.
0.4 x 20 x 10 = 80 units of lye
Units of Lye
Calculated by multiplying the current in milliamps by time in seconds by the number 10.
15 units for very fine or vellus hair
45 units for medium
60 units for coarse
80 units for very coarse
The RF level should be very low in the range of 5-10 volts. It sounds as if maybe the RF level was a bit high, and maybe you only need 60 units of lye instead of 80.
You mentioned that Cataphoresis was performed with the operator of the JB machine, but not with the Hinkle Operator. Cataphoresis is to end the action of the lye by reversing the currents. I personally always perform cataphoresis after Blend.
Both methods used are Blend. The RF is only used to thin the lye so that it can get into small places easier, whether it be constant RF or just for a short period. However, too much RF should not be used, or it just evaperates the lye. From what you have discribed, the choice is yours as to which operator you prefer.
The Hinkle operator did a trial to get the time to epilate by using HF only. She found that on a setting of 2 (which hurts and burns me) it took over 20 seconds and hair did not release.
It wasnt until she added the DC that she got epilation, but it was still ouch and burning.
To me it seemed like an overtreatment of HF, but they were still struggling to get epilation. (yes very coarse and deep).
On the JB machine she was using 6 milliamps and it took between 18 and 24 seconds for epilation with dc only. When she added the hf at a setting of 1.5 the time came down to between 14 and 18 seconds.
The Hinkel operator was a bit scathing of the jb machine and said that the only way to effectively kill the hair was to run both currents together for the whole time. That just doesnt seem to make sense to me, but she has been a tutor - whereas the jb operator was fairly new but seemed to get better results without skin damage.
So my inclination is to go with the nice lady with the jb, rather than the experience of the Hinkle.
I wouldn’t want skin manifestations. I wouldn’t want “pain”. Electrolysis can be made very tolerable, with minimal skin reaction, not to mention speedy if only practitioners would UPGRADE to better tools of the 21st century and learn how to use them to their and their clients advantage.
So… is this all you have in your area?
By the way, are you located in the USA or New Zealand? The JB epilator stands for Joyce Blok, Neil’s wife. Neil and some engineers developed this epilator in the 1980’s, I believe. It’s an oldie, but if someone can use it well, then okay.
Most of the therapists seem to use either the JB or similar level machines like the Hinkel. Yes I am in NZ, and the therapist I am trying out has just finished her course. So economics play a great part. She will treat me free to get more experience and I trust her. It was her tutor that considered the HF at high level to be essential, and quite frankly I just dont trust her the same. She may have more experience, but maybe only in her machine.
She is willing to upgrade her machine if she can find some good independant advice on newer technology.
And that I think is probably the answer - use someone who is keen and prepared to learn new techniques, and who has a real empathy for mtf trans. She has several trans clients for waxing and beauty, and once she settles on a good electrolysis system and gets a lot more time under her belt (on me) will then be prepared to look at other clients.
There are several threads here discussing sale of various newer machines like Apilus etc on eBay and even here on the forums. If she’s willing to upgrade, it’s something you may want to point out to her.
The Apilus Platinum would be fabulous if she has mucho money (around $10,000). The Silhouet-Tone VMC would be fabulous as well as the Apilus SX-500. This is a partial list, but these models are tops and should seriously be investigated if a new or even an experienced electrologist wants the best epilator for their business of permanent hair removal. MTF clients would appreciate what better equipment could deliver for them, especially.
Although independent advice is what she may want, there are only two real decent companies that make machines, and almost everyone that has bought into one of these is very loyal to that particular company.
She could make a marginal upgrade, or she could make an upgrade to a whole new platform of technology.
I now see uprading as one of two things; you get a machine that has bells and whistles and does microflash but is still on the old 13.56 MHz platform technology, and this best bet would probably include an Apilus Senior II which Dectro, Inc. could assist her in buying a refurbished unit.
Or, she jumps up to the new technology that will soon become the standard, the 27 MHz ‘picoflash’ tecchnology. She could get an Apilus Platinum Pure for $7,000 and honestly, that’s a great buy for the business it’ll bring in. It’s a stripped down version of the Platinum that still delivers the 27 MHz, more comfortable signal.
So really it’s a matter of how long she thinks she’ll continue to practice and what she’s willing to bank.
I’ll say one thing though: electrolysis is a funny business. It really is. For practitioners that charge $70 bucks an hour, I find it incredulous that they would hesitate to buy a $7,000 machine to better their practice. $7K is like a really cheap car, or as much as some medical beds, not even the price of most lasers that will be less than a tenth as effective. It’s the price of three good TV’s. Why the hesitation? What’s the big deal? I’m ready to go buy one myself. If it’s the main unit an electrologist uses every day, then financing $7,000 should be a non-issue. It’s really not that much and they should just put the money out.
I have long marveled at how some electrologists are more willing to spend $50,000 on redecorating and advertising, but NOT equipment upgrades. I even know one who spent more than a 1/4 million dollars on a total redo of her business, and then as an after thought asked me about buying a used machine on ebay!
James;
I agree most electrologists need to upgrade their equipment. But in making the change from Blend to Thermolysis and Flash, they also need to learn about probe depth. Insertions are probably the most important factor in these modalities.
I hope Natalie is talking 0.6 ma and not 6 ma of current. Neither my Apilus or my ClareBlend will even go that high.
If you are going to stick with the Blend Modality, there has not really been that much in the way of technology improvements. Blend is very slow and painful.
Most of the research and development for new epilators has been in Flash and faster hair removal speeds, while keeping the comfort level better. Apilus has probably put in the most R&D time into this technology. But to be honest, one can go out and spend money on the most expensive epilator and still not kill hairs. Because the insertions are where they need to be.
Realizing that you are in NZ and finding someone who has received training in these new modalities, might be very difficult.
The electrologist who uses the hinkle, obviously has not kept up with modern technology. There are lots of variations to the applying of RF in the Blend Modality. Some pulse the RF, some apply DC first and then apply RF, and some apply RF before starting the DC currents. My Ultrablend, has two separate footswitches, just so an operator can change to whatever they believe is best for the client. One footswitch is for RF and the other for DC. Or one can push a button and use only one switch and let the machine do its thing, meaning both at the same time.
Then there are newer machines where one does not even need a footswitch at all. It senses the insertion and waits a period of time, and then begins it epilation cycle. I guess, when it comes to the Blend modality, that is probably the extent of technology improvements.
Last Year, I opened up my practice, and I know I really appreciate my first clients for their trust in my skills. One client, because of having some previous mistreatments, had me start on her where treatment was not visible, until she got enough confidence to let me start on her face. You may wish to see how things go that way as well.
That being said, I would maybe add, it the JB electrologist would purchase say an Apilus Senior II, she could still utilize the Blend modality, while learning about thermolysis and Flash, and could maybe even become the only Electrologist in the area offering low pain electrolysis.
James and others; I know AIE is now training even beginning students using Platinums. But I have been told that these machines have been modified for their schools use. My concern with using these machines to train on, is that if treatment is really that much faster, then overtreatment also comes that much faster as well. She lives in a region where Blend seems to be the only modality being used.
What I am saying I guess, is that if this Electrologist is willing to invest in modern equipment, NatalieS could help this electrologist out by letting her learn at first on areas maybe not so visible, and then move to the more visible areas after a bit. This way, the electrologist improves her skill set, and maybe even becomes the only one in her area offering these new modalities to those around her. If NatalieS needs her face worked on right away, than the apilus can still perform that modality. Besides, maybe the electrologist will find that she likes not having to step on switch/switches all time time.
Marthajoy, as much as I see where you’re coming from in your above posts, I think you need to consider some very big strides. I think there have been big strides in not just flash, but blend as well. Pico-blend with the new frequencies, Sequential Blend by using computer assistance to effectively mix currents, and pulsing blend to minimize discomfort are all newer advances with blend. The whole concept of pulsing is what helps those with less than an exact insertion or two. And if one is making a living at it, one should have halfway decent at insertions, able to at least stay in the follicle until they get to the bottom, Then, multi-pulses are going to kill something. That’s what, to me, it is all about; going all the way down to hit at least something important along the way, with less discomfort than one big therm thump that can be less than pleasant. Accuracy is always the biggest factor, but c’mon, it’s a game that’s hidden under the skin, there’s an element of guess-stimation/approximation involved.
Sorry, I just get peeved at a profession that I want the best for, but just fails to embrace it’s industry leader’s new technology. People should be lined up for the Platinum. They should be setting up financing like Dell does in-house with laptops. My former (first) electrologist is still using a Hinkle Classic. You know what I think? She doesn’t really care about patient comfort, as long as they keep coming through the door. And they will always come through the door because women are desperate to remove lip hair and chin hair.
Electrologists that refuse to upgrade have basically lost empathy with their clients and they do care about patient comfort -but not that much. They’ll pause before going onto the next insertion, touch tweezer-needle to stop discomfort, ask, ‘Are you okay?’, but the investment in comfort stops there. They aren’t going to upgrade their Hinkle Classics until the insides rust out, or it tumbles off the counter because the client yanked on the patient ground in absolute agony. As long as they get a bulb and sheath, they see no reason.
Blend is much faster on the Silhouet-Tone VMC. It is so much easier to do blend on the Sil-Tone VMC than other machines I have used. It is effective, too. You can go out of the pre-sets if you desire, and I have done this, but it is more comfortable for the client if you don’t stray to manual mode. I don’t know what the engineers did to make this such a dream piece of equipment for hair removal, but they did it right. If I owned an Apilus SX-500 or a Platinum, I would be just as ga-ga, too.
I used an Ultra Clareblend and then a digital computerized Gentronics. Both good machines, but I would be like a lost puppy in the hair removal jungle if I had to go backwards and use these units again. There is no way that the man I worked on today could have withstood a 2 hour appointment on his back if it were not for my VMC. I was able to remove just shy of 1,700 hairs,that’s over 800 hairs per hour! He wanted a three hour appointment, but I didn’t have the time to offer,so I’ll catch him next week.
Martha, the insertion issue you raised is true, but if one INVESTS in QUALITY MAGNIFICATION, what a different world the electrologsit enters. I’m not kidding. Her/his insertions can be perfect. They can get down to the bottom of the follicle. The largest probe size can be used. Skin reactions can be seen in an instant and levels adjusted immediately.
All of this has been said here many times in the effort to share helpful information that benefits the consumer and the electrologist. Hopefully, the message will ring loudly in as far away places like New Zealand. Natalie, ask your electrologist to come join the hairtell gang. She can e-mail me if she wants help with upgrading. I’d be glad to offer advice even though I have openly said everthing I know in my posts. I sold one of my VMC’s to another electrologsit who is starting out and I’m helping her along. She’s doing great, but she’s waiting for the missing piece of the puzzle to arrive - her surgical loupes, before she can really start flying high.
Electrologists just don’t know what they are missing and they will never know all the income they are giving up by being either clueless or cheap.
Mantaray;
I agree with you, that modern equipment is much much easier to use. Maybe if Apilus did offer financing, they would sell more of them. When first starting out, I asked them about possible financing, and they do not offer any. The point is, it is far easier to purchase a laptop computer than it is to purchase an Apilus. My Apilus had to have a purchase order placed and unit paid for, then the order went to the factory for them to build the unit. To their credit, they did offer a discount to those who attended the school that I went through.
I suspect however, that if Apilus did have a financing capability, they could sell many more of their units then they do.
As far as blend is concerned however, I believe that the RF is just a side factor, making the lye more effective. Blend does not use heat to kill a hair. If it does it is no longer blend but Thermolysis with a little galvanic thrown in.
AS far as the different variations of accomplishing the different blend modes, the ultrablend can do any of those in manual mode. Granted, it does take a lot of footwork, but it is possible. The computer just makes doing the different variations easier on the electrologist.
I do think that modern epilators do take a lot of the skill requirements away. Just push a button for the location of the hair, and start inserting. Sadly to say, I think most operators have no idea what settings the machine has even chosen to use. Just like I find most electrologist forget everything they learned about electronics once they pass a certification exam.
I might point out another reason so many operators might now want to get rid of their old equipment. They have used that old equipment for so long, that they know exactly where on the dial they get the best hair removal settings. I would bet that they keep the knobs pretty much in the same place for all their clients. Purchasing a new epilator would mean that they have to learn an entirely different machine and all of its unfamiliarities. They do not want to appear as if they do not know how their equipment works, so they stick with what they are comfortable with. My guess is that they are not convinced that their really have been that many improvements to electrolysis and since their equipment still works, might as well get the most out of it.
Purchasing a new machines, also means time spent trying to learn its new capabilities. Since so many electrologist forget just about everything taught once they are certified, this having to get out the books and refresh their knowledge may be a deciding factor in their remaining with the tried and true as they view it.
Personally, I think it is better to upgrade, if only for the fact that at least from my experience, the newer machines are so much better regulated. On my apilus, I know from testing, that if I want such and such power, that when I set it up on the display, that is exactly what I am going to get. Independant of whatever load I put on the unit. The regulation of my Clareblend is not nearly as accurate as my Apilus.
Hey thanks all, this has been really useful. My therapist will read through it and we will start looking. She is a close friend as well as being a therapist.