Are we less than trans people??!

I wonder if there is some equality of rights. If trans people feel bad about their bodys and sex, they get support from the health insurance, get free surgerys and electrolysis.

If a not trans person feels bad about his/her hair, he just gets send to psychiatrist and there he/she gets told that one needs more self-acceptance. And for sure gets no money for treatments, no matter how bad make that feel the afflicted person…

Why are the trans people treated in a another way?!

So I ask this qouestion - are conventional people less than trans?! (I dont want to make any personal attack, but there is for sure uneveness of the rights)

I support your claim, Miro.

If a woman (trans or not) is entitled to subsidized treatment because it affects her self-esteem, men also have these same rights.

The problem, dear, is that psychiatrists are not aware of the demands of today’s society. Maybe they do not have sons with excess hair problem?

Until recently, a year perhaps, most of my clients were women. I have never discriminated against men, but for some reason they did not demand my services. I was one of those who thought that the removal of hair in man was frivolous. I have to admit that I was completely wrong, the boys suffer as much as girls and excess hair on them completely determines their lives.

Churchill said:

“I’ve often had to eat my words, and I must confess I’ve always found it a wholesome diet.”

This has happened to me.

First let me mention that most of my transsexual clients pay my treatments without support of insurances. Many transwomen struggle around with laser treatments payed by themselves , or if they cannot afford with tweezing or using rotary epilators (which i did as well). Many transwomen would be glad if they had an income allowing them to avoid struggling for insurance coverage of theit treatments - often over several years.

Now please let me switch to my role as a transgender activist:

Situation here in Germany: there are no special regulations for trans women at all.

The official medical indications for electrolysis all refer to “native” women (a bit unsharp because transwomen are also native woman, but i hope you get the point). So in theory any woman with excess hair growth can visit a physician and let him remove these hairs - on “insurance card”.

Transwomen always need to apply for such treatments - just because of the volume and because there are no physicians willing to that job. Even if they own an electrolysis device, they usually restrict its use on smaller amounts of excess hair of native women (well actually they send them to their laser studio next door…).
Obtaining the coverage of the cost of electrolysis is usually by far the most difficult part of a transition - You often need a lawyer to obtain coverage by the insurance. That a hard path, and every woman with severe hirsutism does of course also have this option.

The rights are indeed the same. Yes, and it is not ok, that in actual practise women will have more problems to obtain their rights.

On the other hand the situations are not entirely comparable: a typical male beard is usually much denser than even severe forms of hirsutism, making successful transitions without beard removal practically impossible. Women with hirsutism always pass as women, transwomen with untreated beards usually do pass as men.
Shaving is not an option: if you - as i had to - need to shave three times a day in order to keep your skin smooth enough that is possible to cover the shadow of the beard under a thick layer of theatre makeup Your skin will be severely damaged within a few months. And with such a kind of masquerade it will be almost impossible to find employments - roughly 2/3 of all trans women in Germany are unemployed or unemployable - inlcuding me. I am really lucky having found my niche, even one that i love; my alternative would be Hartz IV without any perspective to come up on my feet again (BTW: i have been a project manager in the IT industry).

FIRST give trans people better social perspecitves and remove discriminiation at work or obtaining work at all. THEN we might start to talk about other things.

Maybe the trans community know how to advocate better in their own behalf than all others.

In the US, there is no distinction. They don’t get any special insurance privileges here as far as I know.

Summing up from my previous post: trans women do not have better regulations than native women in Germany.

In the US the social perspectives for trans women are a lot better than they are in Germany. Lynn’s explanation of this is still valid.

Quite often, insurance benefits for transgender people in the US can be specifically EXCLUDED under employer’s insurance policies, especially when they are employer-funded/paid. Transgender employees are routinely denied coverage for psychotherapy and drug expenses.

The reason trans folk are routinely denied coverage for even psychotherapy and drugs is they are liable for a breach of promise lawsuit if they pay to treat one part of an illness, but not another part of the same illness. This is why women with facial hair are legally able to sue for hair removal when they can prove that the insurance company did pay for other care of a condition that has hair growth as a side effect, or paid for a drug that has hair growth as a side effect.

SRS is explicitly not covered by most insurances. FFS and breast augmentation are never covered that I am aware of. I know of a few municipalities who cover SRS under their employees insurance but that is very very rare.

Also remember, like many Americans, plenty of TS have absolutely no health coverage at all.

I don’t know any TS who had their electrolysis paid for by insurance; I know one person who was able to get the government to pay for their electrolysis, but this person was extraordinarily good at gaming the system.

I have been paid by insurance for more than one TS’s electrolysis treatments. They just want to game the premium payers out of getting anything they can get away with withholding from them.

In one case, the insurance covered it, and paid for it, and then the employer changed carriers, and the new carrier denied it claiming… wait for it… Pre-Existing Condition!

Science shows us that there are people who are living with a female brain but have a male body. In this situation, the transgender is viewed as having a birth defect. Some health insurance covered GRS in the US. I do not know if it is covered anymore. I would love to know more so that I could share this information with those who need it.

Depending on how a society perceives this issue, it will be handled accordingly. In the US, a few decades ago, it was not unusual for a trans person to get electro-shock treatments and many were institutionalized.

There are societies that view the transgender person as the third gender, as in India. I do not know of any health insurance coverage in India that covers the surgery. If a 3rd gender is acknowledged, then it might not be viewed as a birth defect.

Britain pays for TGS.

Is there a government policy on how transgender’s are treated or how they are viewed in your country (Germany)?

Miro from reading your post you seem a little bitter towards trans people? What point were you trying to make with your post?
You are certainly ill informed and would do well to get your facts straight before ranting about what trans folk get and what everyone else doesn’t.
Many trans people are driven to self medicate, purchasing hormones from less than reliable sources on the internet, most trans people pay for their own hair removal. A lot of trans people travel half way round the world to find less expensive SRS or dodge the gate keepers who agree or not to any “free surgeries and electrolysis”. Those that do manage to jump through all the hoops here in the UK often have a humiliating time in doing so. Many lose their jobs, their homes and sometimes their families in the process.
Do you really feel a need to stick the boot in, life really isn’t as easy as you seem to think for trans people.
By the way it has nothing to do with “sex” for anyone who’s reading it’s very much a gender thing

But there are first steps toward free gender specific medical treatment for the hijras. Which means that a small minority recently has had access to funded HRT and SRS.

Is there a government policy on how transgender’s are treated or how they are viewed in your country (Germany)?

There is some jurisdiction on the subject. Plainly spoken the highest courts forced the insurances to cover the medical treatment of a transition, but the insurances still won’t accept and search for every gap to deny or to retard the treatments.

Problems like this need to be thought about and solved. In America, if there is not a product or service that is needed and someone wants to change the status quo, some energetic entrepeneur will create a business so that product or service becomes available. People have to pay for what they want, though, because nothing should be totally free or it will go bust somewhere down the road eventually.

There are transgender friendly insurance plans and more can be created with a thoughtful financial way to make it become reality.

Yes, sex and gender are separate, but nonetheless linked. A trans person, regardless of sex and thus perceived gender, undergoes physical changes relating to the former (primary and secondary sex characteristics) to match the latter.

Also, please distinguish getting treatment for electrolysis with the process of undergoing transgender transition - I don’t think Miro was arguing against that at all.

In England and Wales, it is more common and somewhat easier for trans people to get hair removal treatment than a woman with PCOS on the NHS. PCOS women have to jump through hoops too. They just don’t get the recognition of their condition or the end result.

Good point about PCOS, smurf.

In England and Wales, it is more common and somewhat easier for trans people to get hair removal treatment than a woman with PCOS on the NHS. PCOS women have to jump through hoops too. They just don’t get the recognition of their condition or the end result.

How do you mean “They just don’t get recognition of their condition or results” I am not familiar the treatment protocols so I’m interested to know. Obviously the medical profession is aware of PCOS, surely they allow some hair removal as part of treatment? It does sometimes feel like they (the doctors, etc) just want you out of the door as soon as possible.
I’ve seen on Embarrassing Bodies (tv series here in the UK) individuals always seem to get referred for laser as opposed to electrolysis, if they have a problem with hair. I’m yet to see a “long term” follow up showing successful permanent removal, it’s always a short time after. Frustratingly this gives viewers the impression that laser is the real deal and the answer to their problems when in fact it often isn’t… I hasten to add I think the referrals are private, I wonder does a similar thing happen on the NHS?

What I meant by ‘they don’t get… results’ is referring to treatment for hirsutism. PCOS diagnosis is a double edged sword. Most women get diagnosed with it in their late 20s - early 30s when they’re trying for a family. The only thing doctors do is suggest contraceptives and spiractalone (sp?). There’s a sub forum here do with medical conditions where you can read up about it. Contraceptives are a very temporary measure and counter-productive when you’re trying to for a child anyway, let alone if you’ve got to battle against fertility problems as a result of the PCOS.

PCOS ladies have to go through several rounds of EXACTLY the same tests - blood work, scans, etc. - because medical professionals fail to recognise and diagnose PCOS the first, second, third and nth time around. I don’t know the ins and outs of gender reassignment processes in the NHS as I’ve described for PCOS, but it can be a ten year battle to get diagnosed with PCOS. The NHS funds gender reassignment surgery and associated hair removal whether by laser or electrolysis. There are even clinics for electrolysis on the NHS specifically and only for trans people. For hirsute women who have PCOS, that luxury does not exist. “It’s just a cosmetic issue” to put up and shut up about. Now tell that to someone who’s trans and see what kind of a reply you get.

To be fair, Embarassing Bodies does use it on extreme hirsute cases where it definitely has the potential to work. What my one gripe would be is to explain it takes 12-18 mths to get a permanent reduction and see results; to explicitly state how many laser treatments the patient has had; how many months later the patient came back for a follow-up with the EB clinic; and to have a disclaimer about laser causing induced growth on areas that are commonly treated by laser on EB, such as the face.

I do have a basic understanding of PCOS and I have no doubt it isn’t very nice for any women suffering from it. Surely there must at least be instances of some patients receiving hair removal on the NHS?
I think I know of the clinic that you’re referring to. I believe it’s one day a week at Charing Cross. I’m not aware of the amount of treatment that’s available there but I doubt it’s anywhere near enough to clear a male beard quickly, I’d imagine time available per patient to be very limited and probably more focused on the genital area to make surgery possible. I’d imagine it’s cheaper for the NHS to arrange one day a week there than it is for them to pay for treatment elsewhere. It also allows a cap to be put on any budget used to pay for this and there is no doubt a waiting list. I very much doubt it’s as readily available as you might think.

I was afraid the words of Miro would be misinterpreted. To my knowledge, he did not intend to attack the group of transgender. As a man, he feels discriminated against in the distribution of social benefits. It seems legitimate, the end of the day, Miro pay taxes as all mortals since the homo sapiens sapiens ceased to be a nomad.

That said, I guess this controversial issue deserves, in my opinion, special attention. What aspects of the physiognomy need to be changed so a person is accepted as a woman in this society? I had a couple of clients with proven fertility who had the deeper voice. Both were born as a woman. I had a case of Rokitansky (born without vagina), not even her mother suspected that she had this condition. Was she less of a woman because of this? Absolutely not. I would never have suspected that Beate, or Alicia were transgender, because all external appearances are quite accomplished. Is this enough? for me the most attractive of them was her personality, regardless of gender with which they were born.

Label the objects is one thing, but labeling people is disgusting!!