Apogee Elite - no shedding on YAG?

Hair Removal Methods Laser hair removal
#1

I recently had my first ever LHR treatment (brazilian bikini) at a clinic using the cynosure elite, and have had mixed results. I’m female, fair skin that burns easily (a burn might fade to a light tan, but mostly burn - type IIish) with coarse, dark hair in the area. My treatment was 3.5 weeks ago, and I have paid for a 6 treatment package.

In the bikini line/mons area, where the skin is extremely white, they used the 755nm wavelength, and in those areas, pretty much everything has shed. Underneath/on the labia, where there is a bit more pigment in the skin, they used the 1064nm wavelength. In these areas, the hair seems to be growing as normal: it has not shed, has grown considerably, and is firmly rooted. I am waiting on the clinic for the other settings they used, but after contacting them about my results, I was told:

“On 755 nm with this particular machine you will see the hair follicle ablate away immediately which is a more noticeable change .On the 1064 we see less growth over a couple of cycles. With this being said it usually takes a few treatments to see a change however the growth cycle will be undermined and the hair will be reduced. Therefore the 2 technologies are different (and the way you will respond to them)”

Can anyone tell me if I am right to expect shedding of any area that was treated at appropriate settings? I am skeptical of the explanation that the growth cycle has been undermined, given it continued as usual in anagen.

Any help/advice would be greatly appreciated!

#2

I was treated with a YAG about 6 weeks ago and the coarse, black hair shed just fine. It was the “not so coarse hair” which did not respond.

So, to hazard a guess, either your hair was not black & coarse enough there for a YAG or the settings were too low.

Btw, here is the journal of a lady who was treated with 755 nm in that area:

http://www.laserhairremovaljournal.com/Journal-Entries/index.htm

I hope that helps.

#3

You should still shed with the yag unless the settings were too low. Personally I don’t like the yag for anything but facial hair. I’ve had several alex sessions on my forearms with the apogee alex and always had full shedding. One time they used the Yag and I had maybe 80%. Another time they started doing my stomach line with the yag then switched to alex and I had to go back for a touchup because none of the hair shed where the yag was used. Why did they switch from the alex? If you’re light enough for the alex you should be using it.

#4

They switched to the YAG for areas that were darker (labia and such).

I am thinking that it might be a necessary switch, though I’m probably on the fence between light enough for alex and too dark in the area. The problem is, even if it’s the right decision, the settings were obviously not aggressive enoug and they a)didn’t test different settings as they did with the alex, b) didn’t tell me until I called about my poor results, and c) seem to think 0 shedding is an okay result.

I should have spoken up when I stopped feeling it. Ugh. I am going to consult with the lead technician and the physician and hopefully they’ll do a touch up or add on an extra session. I feel like I paid extra for a brazilian and just got regular bikini.

#5

It sounds like the settings they used on the Yag were too low. It’s not the Yag itself - the problem is the settings on it.

#6

Just an update: the clinic was actually great about this issue, despite how frustrated I was at my last posting (it was frustrating because my schedule wouldn’t allow me to have an actual conversation with them, so we had to communicate via email/voicemail - their actual response to my inquiries was great, the modality was just lacking).

For my second treatment, they switched to 755 for the whole shebang. They did say it was a slightly higher risk for some crusting, but like the rest of the treated area, I had a bit of redness and such for the following 24hrs and then it was absolutely fine. So, like most places, they are erring on the side of caution. I was elated when it shed nicely a few weeks later!

#7

See I don’t get this. I just had a treatment on my full legs at my new clinic. Last time they used yag as I’m tanned. Only 10% of the hair shed. She told me I’m very misinformed about how it works, that it won’t always shed and that you can’t go by shedding. She said that it doesn’t have to shed to work and that some areas just won’t shed. I told her I’ve always had full shedding at my other clinic on other areas but when I did my legs here no shedding. She said the hair you see is just dead but the hair being treated you can’t even see as it’s under the skin which makes no sense. She’s worked at a lot of the larger clinics in Toronto too and the business is not shady at all it’s very professional but she was adamant that I’m wrong about shedding. I told her my past clinics said if my hair doesn’t shed to come back for a touchup and she said that’s a waste of time and dangerous to do the same area more than once.

When I’ve been treated with Yag on Apogee at my other clinic I still feel it and it hurts a bit, but yag on the apogee elite (was 18mm, 18 joules 20ms pulse and 2hz) I didn’t feel anything. She did half the area with the alex and it hurt a LOT and was very red after so will be interesting to see if one area sheds and the other doesn’t.

This goes with what a lot of clinics have said though. When I did my legs with Soprano XL I had no shedding and was also told there that it won’t always shed and that it’s normal so now I’m wondering if maybe legs just don’t shed. She said it would shed naturally through exfoliation and what not. Will see what happens in a few weeks, if the alex fully sheds and yag doesn’t then I’ll have something to go by. Either way she said I’m slightly tanned and won’t use the alex so I feel really stuck. I hate the yag it doesn’t do anything on me but they never want to use alex. I’ve used GentleLASe when I’m tanned before and had NO problems at all so I feel like I’m wasting money paying for the yag. Like would diode be better than apogee yag if I am tanned??

#8

There are ways to use a Yag laser with settings that will make the hair shed, as though an Alex wavelength was used.

#9

Chris are you saying then that with a yag normally it’s not unusual for hair not to shed? I had thought that all hair had to shed regardless of the laser type used. If it’s normal for not all hair to shed using a yag then that would be good as I don’t seem to usually get shedding with a yag like I do with alex. Alex I get usually 100% shedding and looks like I’ve waxed but yag it depends on the area, it’s either maybe 80% or 10% like the last time I did my legs.

#10

Most Centers are not well versed in using Yag’s properly. As such, sometimes the hair will not shed or shed very little, requiring a retouch.

#11

I’m still confused, so you’re saying if there’s no shedding on the Yag then it’s not going to work?

She was adamant that regardless of laser type, hair won’t always shed, that that is not an indication of if it will work. I told her that most places say the opposite, that hair could shed and it doesn’t even mean it was strong enough and she said that’s wrong. I told her every other part of my body has 100% shed when I’ve had treatments but not my legs, and she said you can’t compare underarms to legs they’re two different areas with different types of hair and growth patterns.

She said that the hair won’t always completely shed, that it will shed naturally over time with exfoliation and what not, and that you usually won’t see results until at least 5 treatments or so. That pretty much goes against everything that I thought about LHR as well. However when I did my full legs with Soprano XL before and also underarms, my underarms fully shed, but legs didn’t at all, so from experience so far my legs just haven’t shed. I’m tanned so we did part with the alex on my upper leg but then the machine kept rebooting so she said we have to use the Yag, so I’ll see what happens between the alex area and the yag.

The other thing is that with the Yag I barely feel it at all, just mostly cold air. With the alex you really feel the snap, especially upper legs, it was almost a bit too much. The area was all red after the treatment but yag area had no reaction so I’m not sure what to do. I have a package deal but it’s not like a contract, I pay as I go, but I got such a good deal on it, basically 60% off because I had another package there so it’s only like $160 for full legs.

#12

LAGirl now that you’re back what are your thoughts on this? I’m just so confused, I always thought it had to shed or it won’t work. My tech is ADAMANT that I’m wrong that it won’t always shed and that it sheds naturally. I told her I had done face sessions with alexandrite and everywhere but upper lip and chin shed, so I switched to yag. She told me its because those are really hard areas to treat and has nothing to do with the depth which makes no sense. She told me that I shouldn’t expect my legs to shed just because underarms did, that it can take longer or that it does it naturally. I just want to know if I’m wasting money by going here. It’s a good deal $1000 for 6 full legs, but the problem is she won’t use the alexandrite on me because i’m always a bit tanned because I go on vacation too much. I’m not THAT dark but lying on a white bed with fluorescent lights it made me look super tanned vs my upper legs. Just don’t want to be wasting money being treated by a yag if it’s not going to do anything. Will wait to see if I shed this time and judge. It’s just weird she said super high settings are needed for best results, and that 20ms+ like my previous clinic was too much, then she used the yag 18mm, 18 joules, 2hz and 20ms pulse so it was like ??? On the flip side the alexandrite killed, was super painful where the yag I felt nothing. I just wish she would use the alex anyway, such a pain in the you know what. I wish more places here had GentleLASE so they had no choice but to use alex on me!

#13

If the hair is coarse enough to be affected by the Yag and the settings are set properly for it to happen, in my opinion it should shed. Any affected hair should shed.

#14

You’ve had GentleLASE or Apogee in the past at max settings/spot size (though not in that area), right?

In the past, I had a type III patient whose legs I treated with GentleLASE at 18mm and 20J. The next session they had developed a tan, so I lowered the fluence to 16J. It went well. If you aren’t too tan I don’t see why they won’t at least test spot the alex on you.

#15

It’s interesting that someone else got such a similar spiel - although, when phrased like this, I wonder if she thought you expected IMMEDIATE shedding? Because any shedding takes a little time, and exfoliation always helps! That’s giving it the benefit of the doubt, though, especially since she gave the same “it takes several treatments to see results” line that I got.

Yes, it takes several treatments if we’re talking lasting, significant results. But a disruption in the growth cycle will be obvious as hair sheds and/or pepperspots show up. I wonder where the techs are getting their info - it sounds suspisciously similar!

This sounds exactly like my experience - I wasn’t sure it was even ON when she used the YAG, whereas the alex was a definite snap/needleprick feeling. I decided during my most recent treatment to go over the patch I left in the front of the pubic area, just to reduce density. That’s the only time I’ve contemplated taking a breather. Yowch!

#16

Maybe it’s a different situation for higher skin types but I’m a type IV. I definitely felt every treatment. Once or twice, when I didn’t feel it was hurting as it should, I asked for either the joules to be increased or pulse width decreased.

I’ve always had near complete shedding of all areas, even the areas that saw no improvement after I stopped treatments such as my hands and upper back thighs.

As I’ve mentioned before, I’ve also ‘supervised’ my sister, my cousin and my friend’s treatments. Everyone has had pain and shedding with the YAG!

I would say that if it’s not shedding and/or not hurting, then you need an Alex.

#17

Pain depends on settings and coarseness of the hair. All machines should hurt at effective settings if treating coarse hair.

#18

Hey everyone. First to JMISR I’ve had GentleLASE and Apogee not sure about highest settings but pretty high, GentleLASE obviously 3ms, was I think 18j at 18mm no issues. On Apogee it was 15mm I believe 20 or 22 joules 20ms or something, not entirely sure. Always hurts and always shedding.

To everyone else though, the thing that’s weird is with Apogee Elite at my previous clinic, even when using Yag like on my face or forearms, I still feel it, almost as bad as alexandrite, like it’s hard to tell the difference. But with the MPX I feel nothing on Yag at all. Maybe next time I’ll try to see if she will do a test spot with alex but I dunno, she came in and basically laughed and was like hahahaha yeahhh you’re def not getting treated with the alex no way.

I wouldn’t mind so much being treated with the yag it’s more the fact that the results don’t seem good. Like I did my forearms once with Apogee elite at my old clinic because I was a bit tanned and it still hurt like alex. I didn’t have as good shedding but I’d say maybe 85% vs 100% I always get with the alex so def had a lot. Last time when I did my legs with the yag it was more like 20% shedding.

The thing is when I first went there, I told her I was used alex at my old place, around 20ms and she was like that’s way too high for pulse width you’ll never get results that high we need to go as high as possible that you can take for the best results. So I was like okay awesome someone that knows their stuff. She would lecture about treatments and seems really knowledgeable as well. Before I went there we talked via email a lot and she was like wow it’s great to have a patient that actually knows their stuff. It was just when I booked this appointment over email I said hopefully we can use the alex because last time I had literally no shedding.

Then at the start of my treatment as soon as she walked in she was like K, first before we do anything, this idea that you have about shedding, we have to clear that up because it’s wrong. And then she lectured me for like 5 minutes on how hair doesn’t have to shed to work and how not all body parts will shed. I told her that I’ve always fully shed before but she reminded me I’ve never done legs with alex before which is true. So I don’t know really. I have a plan at 2 other places was $49 for 3 Soprano XL sessions, not my favourite laser at all as I did legs the first time with it and had no shedding, but on my underarms I did. So I’m going to give it 3-4 weeks see what happens then maybe give it a shot on Soprano see the difference. She’s like in love with the yag though. She said she’d do my upper legs on alex and she did half of one of them and then the machine kept getting loud and she said it was showing an error, so she’d reboot it and it would give a water pressure area so she’d restart again then finally was like K somethings wrong with the alex, we have to switch back to the yag.

#19

Okay! So I just went to my past clinic that I’ve done pretty much all my laser on that I love. I only switched due to the Groupon deal. Anyway while I was there I told her about doing legs with Yag and not feeling it and that I had literally no shedding. I asked if the hair is supposed to shed for it to work and that the tech there said that it doesn’t always shed and that that’s normal. My tech was basically like NO! Who does she think she is that’s SO wrong. She said that it has to hurt, yag or not and that all hair should shed. She said she’s only ever had a yag not shed for someone once before, and it was because she was super tanned and had fine hair so she refused to use the alex and did yag. When she didn’t shed she redid the whole area once the tan was gone with the alex and she shed. She said the place I went to sounds like a total scam and that the tech there doesn’t know anything. I then mentioned about many team buy type deals using Soprano XL and she basically said it’s a piece of junk that it is a gimmick, that they’re always trying to get her to buy one but that Alma Lasers are really messed up, with parts only available from overseas and super expensive.

I did my full face and neck, this time with the alex again, tried to switch from the yag. She said I’m a little tanned and olive so that she would prefer not to use 15mm on my face with the alex, but would do 12mm, or could do 15 on the yag up to me. I said do the alex. It hurt like crazy as she used high joules with no numbing cream. She said that you can tell it’s working because the hairs are basically sparking and exploding which I can see. When I look at my face there’s no stubble at all it’s all smooth like all the hairs have been singed. I think I’m done at my newer clinic as it’s a waste of money then.