You are very welcome.
I really try to be fair (although some don’t seem to see it all the time.)
Your follow up makes me pine for the days when I was an inspired student deeply into science and obscure mathematics. It’s been 20 years since I was a walking scientific calculator.
I honestly belive that we can find something that explains what we see, and is even a wording we all (ok most of us) can live with.
I tell you what old friend. Since you are back, I will take some time to co-ordinate the stuff people sent me, told me, and otherwise, and try to put it all together (can’t say when I will have that done) and we can put together a more comprehensive and fact checked explanation. It would have seemed like just getting the last word had I done that while you were gone.
Please take your time, and I would like to learn more as well.
Sensation during treatment has so many variables that I can not say that any one treatment modality is the most painful.
I meant in generally blend is the most painful method. That’s speaking in general.
Even though it seems that your return has reincarnated the same discussion (I tried to stop it) I hope you don’t think you are being ganged up on and kicked. We like you, we really do. (Ok, I know I do, and I am sure others here on the forum missed you in your absence.
Don’t worry James, it’s clear that you have more people on your side in this forum.
I know (almost) everybody against me, simply I dare to point out different views as well some facts that might hurt a few people.
I remember I mentioned the damage of collagen cause by thermolysis. One particular member found it extremely offensive, but his/her response was only depending on the skills of electrologists, and even galvanic can cause so. Which does not sound very smart in my opinion.
I was only pointing out some issues electrologists don’t like to mention. Shall I call this “dirty secret”?
(I will save the discussion of thermolysis can cause damage of collagen far more easily for next time than galvanic, without blaming the skills of electrologist.)
Nobody is against you just because you have an opinion. I just don’t get it when personal offense is taken when a discussion leads to a place where someone see’s things differently than another.
ants, this forum is more civil than kitty’s consumer beware forum. Talk about disrespect and gang tactics. Are you aware of consumer beware - pretty harsh and abrasive moderators when you disagreed with them. Actually, the consumer board is down on her site and I don’t know if it is coming back, so you can’t really check out what I’m saying. www.cosmeticenhancementsforum.com is another good place to spend time, besides hairtell. Many decent moderators over there as well.
I wanted to jump in and say, though, that there are no “dirty little secrets” in regard to electrolysis. You can’t keep a secret on something that been around for 130 years. Anyone that reads these boards already understands there is good electrolysis and bad electrolysis treatment. No one wishes to keep any secrets about skin damage when electrolysis is performed incorrectly, no matter what modality is used. Electrologists here are the first to jump in and honestly say if a person is getting overtreated or undertreated whether it be with thermolysis, blend or galvanic.
I perform microflash themolysis and blend on clients 5-6 days a week. There are no visible outward changes to the skin when the hair is removed and they are finished and happy. What clients have paid me for over several months to gain permanent hair removal - is complete, pretty skin, minus the hair. Many electrologists worldwide repeat this scenario with good work and caring attitudes.
If you are not an electrologist, then you don’t perform electrolysis on a daily basis. So… I’m curious to know where are you getting your information about collagen destruction and other dirty little secrets that impact clients negatively?
Hi…I just joined and have a question regarding how long it actually takes until hair growth stops. I have been going to an electrolysist for 6 years. She is working on my chin and upper lip. I have maintained a schedule of every 2 weeks (of course with an exception for vacations, etc) for this entire time. I feel the hair growth hasn’t diminished at all, in fact I get terrible ingrown hairs on my chin and underneath my chin a lot and my upper lip seems to have more darker hairs now too. I don’t pluck inbetween sessions. Is 6 years an excessive time to be working on the same 2 areas? Thanks
A picture of your face would help, but unless you have PCOS this is excessive for a simple face job. I personally could not treat the thickest male beard with a testosterone problem for 6 years every week without finishing (I know, I completed a man with a testosterone problem who was growing hair out of all facial follicles, and it did not take 6 years.)
Way too long for a chin and lip area. Way too long by five years.
wow, thanks to both of you so much… I am female, 45 years old, of Italian descent…I guess I need to have a serious talk w/ my electrologist… what do I say?
I’d hate to hear how much money you have spent. I’m sure you are good friends by now and it is hard to say, “I’m not getting results after six consistent years and I will search for someone else, glad to know ya.”
Move forward and please do get some consults and short treatments from other electrologists to start this process again, with momentum. You’ll be able to make better decisions concerning great electrolysis care if you shop around AND… Just take it upon yourself to cuddle up to your computer and read, read, read this hair site and www.hairfacts.com . If you want to be honest with your present electrologist and say it has taken too long and you are moving on, then that is probably a kind way to handle this. You can say other things, too, but do be honest and respectful. Maybe she will learn that she needs to explore strategies that set herself and her clients up for success in a reasonable amount of time.
Can you be more specific about your treatments? Is she plucking you? How does your treatment feel? How does your skin heal? Are you on any medications? Have you had a medical check up recently? Are you in menopause? Have you been waxing or tweezing while having electrolysis?
Has your electrologist ever said anything about the length of time this is taking? any concern about that???
A modern well-trained electrologist loses clients in 9-12 months with hair situations like yours. They lose them because they finish the job (permanent hair removal) and the client has no need for electrolysis any more.
Dee
My question would be how long have your appointments been for, what type (galvanic, blend, thermolysis) was used, and how many hairs per session would you estimate were removed.
We don’t want to suggest that your practitioner has been using you as an annuity. Many practitioners are too timid to tell a client, “If you don’t come for longer appointments, on a more frequent basis, we will never finish.” I know people who only do 15 minutes once a week. If you have a serious problem, that will never make a dent in it.
wow, 6 years? what does the ELECTROLOGIST tell you about this? what’s her prediction on how long it takes or why it’s seemingly not working for you? meanwhile, i suggest you sample 3-4 other electrologists and get tested for PCOS if you really have a lot of hair on your face.
James, funny how this story sounds just like one on the laser forum <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
The biggest problem with cases like this are clients who choose very short appointments in the beginning(in an attempt to save money, which they ultimately do not) or having a client who does not comply with a schedule that gets them cleared asap and keeps them cleared until the end comes. This poster has not answered any of the questions posed, so this conversation is stalled until she does come back.
wow, 6 years? what does the ELECTROLOGIST tell you about this? what’s her prediction on how long it takes or why it’s seemingly not working for you? meanwhile, i suggest you sample 3-4 other electrologists and get tested for PCOS if you really have a lot of hair on your face.
James, funny how this story sounds just like one on the laser forum <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Some things on this forum remind me of open radio shows like “Love Line” where the hosts figure that the caller is a fraud, but go along with it so that they still give the good information. In other cases, the fraud is so bad that the hosts can’t even play along, because the scammer can’t hold a believable conversation about the fake situation that is the starting point of the conversation.
ANYWAY, we have already said that there are only a very few possible explanations for something like this happening, in any case where it did.
I appreciate everyone’s comments. No I’m not a fraud, just a very busy mom. As I said, I have been going for 6 years and it is my fault for not asking her how long it should take. I have been very diligent about going and she has never said I needed to make appt. for longer than 30 min. I have an appt. today and will ask her the questions y’all have mentioned. I will also try to post a picture so you can judge the amount of hair. I do appreciate all the information everyone has given me.
You are most welcome and in no way does anyone think you are a fraud. I’m not sure what you read to think that? What you posted is surely believable about the excess amount of time you have been doing this. I have heard more than I like about electrologists that never finish with clients. All the probable causes for this have been listed above and you are much “richer” if you understand that and then make decisions that will bring about success for your chin and lip in a reasonable amount of time.
If you can post some good pictures, that is always helpful as long as the resolution is good. There are many that can help you out here to discover if it is a practitioner problem, a possible medical problem or a client problem. If one waxes and tweezes while having electrolysis, that’s the ticket on the wrong train and you will never get to completion. Maybe we can help you be successful with this.
Dee
Ok, this is an obvious case of never getting to first clearance.
Your practitioner probably never told you this, but in order to finish a hard case, one must do lots of hours frequently in the early going, so that you can get to first full clearance as quickly as possible, and then, move into the point where you do fewer hours/minutes, at a reduced frequency until you finish. If you never got to the point where you had actually removed all hairs in the treated area and were clear for a week or three, you never have experienced full clearance.
Why wouldn’t an electrologist tell you this? Many don’t tell you this because they don’t want to be in the position of looking like they are asking you to empty your wallet on the first date, er, um, I mean appointment. You get the picture? They ask you how long YOU WANT to get work done, and they ask YOU when YOU WANT to come back in. Of course, you don’t know that you have a choice of doing this a little at a time and thinning it out over a long period of time, OR hitting it hard and finishing in 9 to 18 months.
Mantaray said : "Laser is a very bombarding type of application, and it only has a chance to be effective when the hair shaft is in direct contact with the dermal papilla, in complete intact anagen stage. That is the only way it can conduct it’s energy to it’s target.
Electrolysis, can knock out a hair in any stage, all you need to do is sink that sucker to anagen depth and viola, dead papilla, dead bulge, and dead sebaceous sweat gland. And it all takes place under the surface, unseen if done well. Electrolysis is sharpshooting with skill and refined, computer controlled machines."
Is this true???
Why did I get the impression that electrolysis is only effective on the hairs that are in the anagen stage of growth. I’m really confused now <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Dee, Jack help!!!
Mantary has gone to the bonus round of electrolysis capabilities while leaving the rehlm of typical application.
Since we get enough complaints about sensation, most electrologists practice within the parameters of only inserting into the open follicle, avoiding any puncture of the follicular wall. When practicing in this mode (as the overwhelming majority of electrologists do) one can only effect permanent hair removal in hairs that are in Anagen Growth Phase. If one were to employ the Kobayashi-Yamada technique where one finds the anagen depth of the hairs, and then inserts on all hairs to the anagen depth, one would be able to effect permanent hair removal in shedding hairs as well as anagen hairs. The cost for this improved capacity is more treatment sensation (read actual pain) as one would now be committed to breaking the follicular base on every insertion of every hair that was not at full anagen depth. One would also be using a higher treatment setting in this technique than one would in a traditional microflash methodology.
Like I tell people all the time, there is more to this than just poke and flip.
Hi James,
One thing that I would like to relate in regards to the Kobayashi-Yamada technique is that one can also perform a modified version of this with hairs up through late telogen.
As the hair moves up the follicle, it will rise quicker than the root sheath will retract behind it. As the telogen hairs will develop the tiny little ball of collagen at their ends as they leave the moisure-rich area of the follicle, this will be some distance above the lower portion of the follicle at that point in the shedding process.
A modified version of the Kobayashi-Yamada technique is to use 2-pulse thermolysis and progressive movement. The first pulse will dislodge the collagen ball on a late-stage telogen hair and allow the probe to slide down the remainder of the follicle with little to no resistance. At this point the second pulse will occur, frequently eliminating the regenerative tissues of the papilla and most likely the bulge area as well. Remember that the retracting remnants of the dermal pappila are not that far away from the bottom of the old root sheath and at the deepest point of the moisture gradient for that particular hair as well.
One note here: This does require very good insertions and the proper amount of power to be effective. Even so, I would have to admit that some of this is speculative and anecdotal at this point, although I have heard that there are clinical investigations under way in this area. (Japan and Canada were what I’ve been told, although I really haven’t checked up on this.)
Notice that the major difference to this approach is that there is no penetration of the bottom of the hair follicle and it is a much less invasive method of treatment than the original Kobayashi-Yamada method.
Just some thoughts on a subject that was presented to me as a student. I have also been told that this does work better with finer, shallower hair than with deeper, coarser hairs.
Like everything else in this field, there are many variations in the way that the art portion of this “science” is practiced. I will be interested to see the final statistical evaluation of this modified technique as it becomes available.
All the best,
Joanie <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
And what a wonderful Scientific Art it is. The point is that it is possible to find, although not likely that one’s local electrologist is practicing it.