Paradoxical Laser Hair Stimulation

Hair Removal Methods Laser hair removal
#21

Well, laser people also believe in their method.

A quick research in MEDLINE shows several abstracts reaching back ovfer about 10 years. The content can be summarized as:

  • no idea what’s going on
  • extremly rare condition
  • can be cured by further treatmens
  • no proof of the latter, not even attempts to explore that

Reminds me to “Vogel Strauß” - hide its head in the sand.

I also saw some victims of that, some of them with massive additional growth (possibly the underlying hormonal issues play their role?).

#22

It seems like more laser would fix it since the hair is dark and “terminal”, but who really knows what’s going on? Haha.

#23

My son is experiencing this paradoxical hair stimulation after having laser hair removal on his back shoulders; Unfortunately now has more hair than before. Will electrolysis cover a large area such as back and shoulders? How long would it typically take? Any recommendations for someone in BayArea (Between SF and San Jose)?

#24

I personally had successful laser treatments for underarms and bikini area but my son has had increased hair growth on back and upper shoulder. After the PA at the dermatologist office (same person who did my laser treatment) said he is experiencing this paradoxical hair growth issue, she even checked with various “experts” and tried various settings on the laser, to no avail.
Is electrolysis his only other option? How long for a large area (now VERY hairy) such as back? Will he experience better results?

#25

Crest, yes, electrolysis can help, but not every electrologist may enjoy doing large areas, so that limits his options. It takes quite a bit of effort and time to do a large back area and it is costly, but it does work as long as the electrologist punches those hairs. I tell my clients that they really have to want this and they have to stay on an ambitious schedule.

Submitting a picture would be great.

I never seem to get those men with back hair that only take 12 hours to clear. My guys take anywhere from 40 hr. - 125 hours just to clear. However, after that first, full clearance, it’s all down hill.

Specifically, I like to use Synchro thermolysis with a large probe. That’s my favorite, but I can make any modality work.

Yes, electrolysis is the only choice for your son now that laser has changed the hair structure and stimulated more hair to grow.

1 Like
#26

Please post on the electrolysis forum with photos. If the hair is not COARSE AND DENSE, then electrolysis is the only permanent option, no matter how long it takes. An average electrologist removes 5-10 hairs per minute. You need a clearance of all present hair once a month or so for about 12-18 months. So you can estimate timing that way.

#27

You didn’t mention how old your son is.

Guys continue to develop hair in that area until the late 20’s so if he had some hair and was treated and ended up with more hair, it doesn’t necessarily mean that the laser stimulated more hair, it could also mean that not all the hair grew before he started the treatment.

#28

i can add here, i got a diode test (well, it was supposed to be a treatment, but i got outta there) for my chin with someone who had no idea what they were doing. (i want to say a few years ago or more). She did place it under the jaw, so at least she knew to be inconspicuous, right next to the jaw bone. I could feel it really just feeling way too hot and not right (oh yeah, something like a laser being burned into my skin!), she did at most 10(?) zaps of the laser when i thanked her and left, and i’m not sure how much later(a handful of months maybe i think when i noticed) i got coarse straight hairs growing right at the top of my neck where it meets the jaw, i have never had them before, can’t remember how many, 10? 15? Started as a couple then i actually had to spend time plucking them, so no idea how many in the end, but not too many. I am olive medium brown, this was a few years ago. (i got rid of them with electrolysis recently).

#29

I’m a new member and wrote a post the other day regarding electrolysis scars. But, I am also curious about laser stimulation as I believe it happened to me. I did LHR prior to electrolysis on my lip and chin. I had some dark, course hairs but not enough to cover the whole area. I know the first couple of treatments was done on a lower setting bc the nurse was afraid of hyperpigmentation( I was just getting over melasma from my 3 pregnancies). She did turn it up after once she knew my skin was ok. After going for about 10 months( 6 wks apart) she said electrolysis would be best to take care if the rest. At this time, I noticed that my peach fuzz type hairs seemed longer all over my face and some with more color? I have no idea if this was a post pregnancy/ hormonal thing or due to laser or bc I had never examined my face so closely?) Does anyone know if the new hairs are usually course, or just more in quantity? I feel like my lip did not get fuzzier, but my cheeks, jawline, chin and under chin did. I’m also 38 so I know woman do get fuzzier w/ age. I really wish I knew about laser stimulation prior to getting laser… I need to figure out a way to stop beating myself up about it!!!

1 Like
#30

There is no scientific basis for the claim that laser hair removal lasers stimulate new hair growth. This is completely contradictory to science, in fact. What may be happening, as some have mentioned, is a natural coincidence of the failure of a laser to remove hair, and naturally occurring new hair growth.

Laser hair removal is designed to destroy the hair follicle through targeted heating of the melanin in hair. The energy delivered is not literally hot- the wavelength of the laser is attracted to the melanin and heats it up. So if there is heat- there is a destructive reaction. There is never a constructive reaction from lasers.

#31

How many years have you personally performed laser reduction?

There have been a serious pattern of consumer post over the years here on Hairtell and the cosmetic enhancements forums of people observing laser hair stimulation. There is at least one scientific paper copied and pasted on this forum noting this fact. As a practicing electrologist, I see many ex-laser clients for clean ups and there have been more than enough that swear they have more hair than when they started their laser treatments.

If you are profiting from the sale of lasers, then I can see why you would make the statements you made. On the other hand, we all like to learn from experts like yourself.

#32

CRC, the type of hair I see in clients with PLHS is all too similar to be anything but this, tends to happen on the neck and sideburns area and is dark, long and thin.
I would get referrals from the laser clinics when I worked in Sydney as this was not a rare occurrence. Plus on the consultation forms that I have seen from several clinics this is one of the wavers they have sign against- that there could be promoted growth.
By the way I regularly recommend laser for some of my clients so I’m definitely not anti, electrolysis and laser can compliment each other very well.

#33

“There is no scientific basis for the claim that laser hair removal lasers stimulate new hair growth.”

Adding my two-cents here. I would say “indeed,” and that’s why it’s called “paradoxical hair stimulation,” since this mechanism is not yet known.

A better statement: “At this time, there is no know scientific basis for the many reports and observations of lasers stimulating new hair growth.”

I could offer a few suppositions, but even more interesting is reduced hair growth from laser with virtually no thermal reaction.

We all assume that the mechanism of laser’s success is thermal (and it probably is). However, several clinics use laser at extremely low settings, multiple treatments and are “paradoxically” reducing hair growth on black men’s beards. (Reference: Skip Mahler, Instantron).

I have seen more than 30 or so men who have had laser and the normal ratio of anagen/telogen hair was “reversed.” After many laser treatments: one (or two) anagen to 99 telogen! (Yes, I counted.) “Prolonged telogen” is also talked about in the literature. How can “thermal damage” alone do that? “Paradoxical?”

The true scientific mind never stops looking for the truth and never rests with “established theory.”

Since the 1930s, we have been told that dental X-rays were completely safe. As late as 2000 we were still told this. A little research on the internet will open your eyes on this one … at least to see that the controversy is NOT over. Yes, still “pro and con” after all these decades!


http://titusdentistry.com/2012/04/x-rays/

#34

I think you are using not very well researched information. Let’s start where you ended:

“Since the 1930s, we have been told that dental X-rays were completely safe. As late as 2000 we were still told this.”

This is not true at all. Anna Bertha Roentgen died in 1919 of radiation sarcoma. She was the first person to receive an x-ray, and the first person to die from ionizing radiation poisoning due to x-ray use. Her husband, Wilhelm Roentgen, the inventor of the x-ray, regularly used lead shields to protect himself from x-rays. To this day every x-ray machine is manufactured to store the treatment parameters used on every patient so as to log radiation exposure, and meet other regulatory requirements per 21 CFR 1020.30-33 and other regulations intended to protect patients from exposure to ionizing radiation. The Center for Devices and Radiological Health at the FDA is the department charged with governing x-rays and their use. If you have been told dental x-rays are safe, you may simply misunderstand the definition of “safe”.

""The true scientific mind never stops looking for the truth and never rests with “established theory.”

  • That’s a manipulative statement intended to level an accusation against my assessment based on known evidence. It is not actually a rebuttal.

"We all assume that the mechanism of laser’s success is thermal (and it probably is)’

“We” is quite a few individuals. Not all laser treatments work by the thermal energy produced by lasers. Some treatments work due to the destructive impact the laser light has on a particular chromophore. But whether we are discussing thermal energy, or kinetic- these are the only proven mechanisms of laser. All others are results of these two.

“A better statement”

  • A statement is only “better” if it actually enhances the message of what the person is trying to get across. In this case, your choice of words is better for you because you have chosen to speculate about a notion that has no evidence worth speculation. My choice of words is based on my knowledge of how lasers work, and how they do not.
#35

CRC, I’m interested to know if you actually perform LHR on people or do you sell and service lasers only. I asked that a couple of posts ago.

Are you seeing patients and performing laser reduction on a weekly basis? Roughly, how many treatments do you perform a week?

#36

Well, you certainly know everything.

#37

Only one comment (I will not get into a pissing contest with you).

When I said “told x-rays were safe,” I meant the dentists told us they were safe … they still do!

#38

That is plain wrong.

I did a research in medline a while ago and found articles documenting that photoepilation may well stimulate hair growth - for unknown reasons - since more than ten years ago.

Bein an electrologist i have seen several of the victims, and i know the same from many of my collegues.

As a vendor and manufacturer You should be honest about the risks and possible side efects of Your machines. In the same way we as electrologists (some with a background as scientists) to as well.

(But that seems to be a problem in the LHR industry - the extreme unawareness of the limitations and even risks of their method, increasing the number of inadequate results)

#39

I’m going to throw these out here:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1524-4725.2009.01433.x/abstract

http://skin.gcnpublishing.com/fileadmin/content_pdf/archive_pdf/vol38iss6/70445_main.pdf

I’m not going to argue on one side or the other, but I wanted to add that just because we observe something, that’s not enough to say there is a scientific basis for why it happens (I’m running on about 5 hours of sleep right now so I may want to reword this later.) For example, why is it fine hairs on the face/shoulders are much more likely to have induced growth than on the legs? Why is it that if I laser an area and the hair becomes much finer and weaker, why does lasering it again not seem to result in induced growth?

#40

SEHR gut gesagt, Beate!

Back at CRC again …

In your original statement you seem to be saying that since there is no “scientific basis” for “paradoxical hair stimulation,” these observations are worthless, mistaken and should therefore be dismissed.

Then you say: “… In this case, your choice of words is better for you because you have chosen to speculate about a notion that has NO EVIDENCE WORTHY OF SPECULATION.”

Question: So, when did you become the anointed arbiter of “truth?” Hasn’t the Inquisition been over for, well, a few decades anyway? Is Stalin still in power? I mean, aren’t we allowed to ASK questions based on our observations?

I have learned, over the years, to listen to people’s observations, and even their suppositions. Real scientists question everything, including their own “sacred ideas.” All of us, EVERYONE, has a RIGHT to ask questions, even if the questions seem “stupid” or UNWORTHY to you “Mein Herr CRC.”

Finally, here’s a question for you that, since you are THE laser expert, I have wanted answered for years! (Try answering this as a BIOLOGIST and not a physicist!).

(Background: I have been doing electrolysis for 38 years and have observed many hundreds — probably thousands — of patients: I know what NORMAL hair growth looks like!)

Question: How does laser “induce” an entire field of body hair to completely REVERSE the normal hair growth cycle that then results in more than 97% of the hairs now being in telogen stage? Please answer this, thanks. (Thermal, Kinetic, Martian invasion?)