Male - YAG - beard - settings help!

Hair Removal Methods Laser hair removal
#1

Hi

I’m male with skin type 2, with light-mid-brown facial hair. It’s really thick around my chin and jaw so it’s painful to shave and I get in-grown hairs - so I’m trying to thin it out a little with laser. I know I need to be careful in case it encourages growth / stimulation - in particular, I’m avoiding checks and neck!

I previously tried Alexandrite as I’m fair skinned with dark hair, but after 3 sessions at 2 clinics (i.e. 6 sessions) I felt zero pain and got zero results! (1 used Soprano Ice Platinum which apparently does both 755nm and 1064nm at the same time). Then I recalled I’d read on here that the YAG is often better for male beards as it goes deeper because of it’s wave length, so I’m now trying that. I wanted to get some input from the experts on here about the settings:

Fluence | Duration | Rate (Hz) | [when]

13 J/cm | 10ms | 1.5hz [most recent - in July]

12 J/cm | 3ms | 1.5hz [in March]

12 J/cm | 5ms | 1.5hz [in February]

[I noted these settings down from the screen of the laser after each session]

Laser: GentleMax Pro - ND:YAG
Male
Skin Type: 2

In terms of pain, I only feel it very slightly where the hair is ultra dense and it wasn’t red (tiny bit) after, wasn’t sore or anything. So far, I may have had a (very) little reduction - it’s really hard to tell as I shave.

Question / advice (please): Are these settings sufficient and if not, which setting(s) should I ask to change / increase? I’m not overly sure what each setting does. Or, if these are sufficient, then is my hair potentially just a bit too deep for laser and so i’m better switching to electrolysis?

Any recommendations / suggestions are welcomed :slight_smile:

Thanks in advance!

John

#2

Switch to electrolysis, please.

#3

That seems pretty low energy, but it’s hard so say without seeing someone in person. You may require those lower settings for some reason.

#4

Hi John:

These settings are TOO Low. They should apply way higher energy in order to get results.

#5

For light mid brown hair, a yag won’t give you results. YAGs are great but only for very black terminal hair. The Alex joules setting are low. I do both laser and Electrolysis and use a Cynosure Apogee Elite. My starting point is 20 joules for the Alex. Then we would be only treating the darker brown coarse hairs. It most likely would thin out your beard. For complete removal Electrolysis would be necessary.

#6

I think Dimi’s response sums up my feelings.
At the point at which the hair color is lighter than skin tone, well you are better off going for electrolysis. It doesn’t matter the laser , Switch to electrolysis if you want to see meaningful progress.

#7

Hello, John,
Please, read the LASER definition. It’s radiation. Some people give me all kinds of weird answers that lasers are different and not all are harmful and blah blah blah. I always send them to READ THE DEFINITION of LASER. In order for laser to qualify as LASER it has to be the RADIATION.

Light
Amplification by
Stimulated
Emission of
Radiation

It is same as ExRay. Would you ExRay your body to get read of the hair? It will hurt you on cellular level. It will make your immune system down. It can cause you a cancer. AND, your hairs still will come back.

Go into the detail if you wish to. But the reason me telling you is this: Hair removed by Laser always comes back. It’s legal fraud. I see this EVERY SINGLE DAY in my office.
As a matter of fact my business took of because people were desperate to get permanent solution and they were finding me, actually, digging me.

Leave laser alone - find good electrolysis office with Apilus machine in your area and have them work on you. Make sure hairs slide out when they zap hairs, they do not pluck it and you’ll be fine.
hope this helps.

#8

Thanks so much for all the feedback. It sounds like I will end up going down the electrolysis route, but, i’m going to try 1 more session (call me a fool!) with the YAG but at higher settings to see if it has any impact. If not, i’ll move on to electrolysis.

I know the settings vary from person to person, but as a range, would you ask for this next session to be 18 Joules (previous zero-impact sessions have been 12 or 13 j/cm), so it’d be:

18 J/cm | 10ms | 1.5hz
(i’m skin type 2, mid/dark brown)

would that be ok or do you think I should be pushing for them to use low 20s J/cm?

#9

This is just straight up false. Xrays are ionizing radiation while the lasers in LHR are non-ionizing. There has been no conclusive evidence whatsoever that LHR use increases cancer risk. There are plenty of reasons for OP to choose electrolysis, but spreading false information does everyone a disservice.

1 Like
#10

Hello, maiselbr,

with all due respect I think you need to more reading and searching regarding the topic. I used think the same until the school I went sent me this:

NOTE: I may not be accurate regarding the xray comparison with laser but we all know xray can damage you and slowly it’s coming out on daylight that lasers are not that innocent.

Life Sciences & Biotechnology Update

June 2001

Near-Infrared Laser Light of High Energy and Ultrashort Pulse Genetically-Induces Response Genes in the DNA Repair and Apoptosis Regulatory Pathways.

This (Air Force Academy) study shows potential human cell genetic damage from laser light. The use of laser light for targeting devices and weapons has sharply increased the likelihood that aircrew and support personnel will be exposed to laser light during operations.

The increased potential for exposure of humans highlights the need for scientifically-based safety standards for laser exposure at the ultrashort pulse lengths. Current safety standards are largely extrapolations of exposure limits at longer pulse lengths, using a minimal visible lesion endpoint in the Rhesus monkey retinal model. A non-animal model for assessing laser-light damage to tissue, particularly human, is quite desirous for obvious scientific, political, and fiduciary reasons.

The study assesses the sublethal insult to human cells, using a tissue culture system for specific genes that has been shown to be important in several biological processes that could lead to cancer or cell death. Using the CAT-Tox (Xenometrix Inc.) assay, it appears that 1064 nm nanosecond pulses of laser light is sensed, and induces several stress response genes, including p53, a gene in the DNA repair and apoptosis (cell suicide) regulatory pathways, in a dose-dependent fashion. The approach provides insight into a more global methodology for characterizing environmental stressors via genetic profiling.

(Order this LIFE SCIENCES & BIOTECHNOLOGY UPDATE reviewed report from InfoTeam Inc., P.O. Box 15640, Plantation, FL 33318-5640; Phone (954) 473-9560, Fax (954) 473-0544: Report No. L20010607; 1999, 13 pp. Price: $89.00, prepaid. E-mail to: InfoTeamMA@aol.com)

Just because there is more money into the laser hair removal and it’s not convenient to dig down
There is another factor in Laser Hair removal that bothers me: I see on daily bases clients come to me and say: I went to remove few hairs and I got fully blown beard, or I removed hairs from one part of the body and got hairs on the other part etc.
I personally lasered hairs from my legs and EVERY SINGLE HAIR CAME BACK in 2 years.

As for laser destroying the p53 gene: this is the gene that tells the cells to die. If the cells do not die you get growth which a result multiplying the cells without a regulation.

I hope this helps.
Thank you
Paua

#11

With all due respect, I have a PhD in applied math/physical chemistry, so I am well-versed in laser capabilities and the physics involved. The paper you cited (which btw can be accessed here (https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a381797.pdf) does not imply as explicitly as you do that laser causes cancer but said it warrants further study. The National Cancer Institute states: " Lower-energy, non-ionizing forms of radiation, such as visible light and the energy from cell phones, have not been found to cause cancer in people." Could LHR cause cancer? Sure, it could end up doing that, but as of today, there is no conclusive evidence that it does. In fact, they’re being studied to actually help treat cancer (http://ir.nsfc.gov.cn/paperDownload/1000013949828.pdf, https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/lsm.22803)

I’m sorry that happened to you. I personally lasered my legs and it’s stayed permanently gone nearly 10 years later. Sounds like you were either not a good candidate or the settings were too low.

#12

-----Perfect:) You and I are talking the same thing. I am impressed with your accomplishments and love talking with smart people.

----as for the study:
The laser is reducing the gene p53, it’s not what the study says? Please, correct me if I am wrong. And, no they did not say it’s causing the cancer directly, but we need to look into what are the consequences of reducing the genome p53 in human cells and use the logic. The genome p53 is a tumor suppressor and when you reduce body obviously will lose it’s defence against the tumor.

Reducing the gene p53 causes the cell overgrowth, which can develop to a tumors. Please, refer to the link.

https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/gene/TP53#:~:text=TP53%20gene%20mutations%20change%20single,way%2C%20leading%20to%20tumor%20growth.

-----As for my legs.
To address of all your questions: I am white caucasian with very coarse dark hairs on my legs. I was told that I was the perfect candidate for laser. I even was considering to buy a laser machine then and leave electrolysis, I thought, who cares for hair by hair removal, I am going into a laser hair removal business! And, no kidding, I was the happiest person for 2 years, until EVERYTHING CAME BACK. I am still doing electrolysis, finishing up my own legs right now.

I followed ALL their instructions, I did almost 10 sessions. I do not think settings were low, I was in pain, lot of pain, and time to time I would get burns as well. But I did not care as long as my ugly hairs were gone. I honestly wish it worked, it’s awful lot of work on my legs now. Never mind the money I invested in this. But it is what it is.

----I am practicing electrolysis for years. I’ve seen the cases when
a. lasers do not even work, they are not for everyone
b. they reduce hairs but they come back after 3-5 years average
c. they work but hairs still come back
d. in some cases, I would say 40% of after laser treatments I see get their hormones messed up and hairs come back worse, in lots of cases as fully blown beards
e.laser removed hairs on one part of the body but triggered hair growth on the other parts of the body
f. I’ve heard people reported the reduction as well when few of my clients told me they did laser and got rid of hairs but now they need to do more clean up BUT it still was not FULL removal neither it was permanent

----Thought for the conversation though: I’ve noticed the category of people who will lose hairs even if they wax them. Some are aged/elderly ladies (not all the aged females, only some) and some younger but very few ones as well. Somebody told me it’s about estrogen levels. Lots of times the thought was crossing the mind: what if that type of people with certain estrogen levels are responding to? What are we missing here?
Why cannot we use this for our advantage? Is this same drug that transgenders are taking? I mean estradiol? Because I see the hair reduction in them once they start hormone replacement therapy.
This might explain why your hairs were gone and you still have nothing after 10 years. Your body might have higher levels of estrogen for some reason.

----Science needs real evidence. And lots of things in science were discovered because of the observation. I am giving you real facts and observations I made over the years. You can tell me all aIl about physics and math, I can tell you what I see when my clients come into my office and what I see. I have all the files/records of my clients who were reporting the abnormal hair regrowth or getting hairs back after laser treatments. I am dealing with real people and real situations n a daily bases and few times I have dealt with suicidal clients because after laser treatment they’ve got full beard. These issues need to be addressed, studied and taken in consideration.

#13

Thank you I appreciate that.

Yes I am very much aware of this fact. However, cancer is a much more complex process than p53 gene knocked out --> cancer. I remarkably cannot find a single other paper that relates LHR to p53 expression, nor can I find a single paper that has cited this work. However, the paper you cited also says that p53 is being induced, which typically is used to mean its activity is being increased. The best I can find is this literature review article from 2017 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5653718/pdf/10103_2017_Article_2310.pdf) which states: The existing evidence base of over 25 years of laser and IPL use to date has not raised any concerns regarding its long-term safety with only a few anecdotal cases of melanoma post treatment over two decades of use. Repeated exposures to high-intensity IPL light, the example quoted being 52 treatments over 6 months, did not result in increased carcinogenicity or tumour formation. An adverse event, such as a dermal burn, does not increase the long-term likelihood of tumour formation at the injury site. Without any hypothetical modus operandi from the heating or absorption from the laser, a scientific link cannot be attributed.

I’m also a guy but perhaps I have higher estrogen levels than normal lol. I’m not an endocrinologist (I’m in medical school, but more interested in being a neurologist or neurocritical care specialist myself), but high estrogen levels can also cause a hypercoaguable state (i.e. leading to a higher incidence of strokes and blood clots). In addition, high estrogen levels are associated with increased risks of breast and endometrial cancers. This is a good question whether or not this can be used for our advantage, but unfortunately, outside my scope of knowledge.

I fully agree with this. I certainly don’t have a good answer for what causes laser induced growth. It seems to be a fairly rare overall occurrence thankfully based on the studies I’ve seen, although it may seem higher to electrologists since a lot of the people who experience it will go to you guys. I would love to be able to get some scientific evidence over what exactly is causing it and who is at high risk. Unfortunately, science funding has gotten more and more limited every year (also a reason why I left academia), and I just don’t think LHR is a priority for funding anymore, so it may be awhile until we ever get an answer.

#14

I understand your fascination with lasers, however, even though I agree with you that “p53 gene knocked out --> cancer” in every source I read that killing this genome is like destroying the immune system.
http://www.bioinformatics.org/p53/introduction.html
at the end you’ll find lot of references. it’s not about who’s write and who’s wrong. It’s out health on steak.

" If the p53 gene is damaged, tumor suppression is severely reduced. People who inherit only one functional copy of p53 will most likely develop tumors in early adulthood, a disease known as Li-Fraumeni syndrome. p53 can also be damaged in cells by mutagens (chemicals, radiation or viruses), increasing the likelihood that the cell will begin uncontrolled division. More than 50 percent of human tumors contain a mutation or deletion of the p53 gene.

             In health p53 is continually produced and degraded in the cell. The degradation of p53 is, as mentioned, associated with MDM-2 binding. In a negative feedback loop MDM-2 is itself induced by p53. However mutant p53s often don't induce MDM-2, and are thus able to accumulate at very high concentrations. Worse, mutant p53 protein itself can inhibit normal p53 (Blagosklonny, 2002)."

I agree thought that so far it’s difficult to get answers on lot of questions regarding the lasers. It lowers immune system defense. We need to take it easy with lasers. Seriously.

#15

Paula ,
“transgender” is not a noun. We are not things or objects . Rather is is an adjective or “descriptor” . Describing transgender PERSONS as “transgenders” is generally taken as offensive language by such persons.

In answer to your question the endocrine system is a complicated system.The effect you are seeing in transitioning clientele is most often the effect of REMOVING active dihydratestosterone from the blood stream… yes this can be accomplished via flooding the body with estridiol, but more often it is the result of an a drug class nown as the antiandrogen, which incllude such things as spironolactone , androcur or finestride. which are prescribed alongside estrogen.
The reason womens bodies arent flooded with estrogen to overcome the dihydratestosterone inthe blood stream is first, it wouldnt work well at that goal, and second, that it would have vast unnintended effects on the rest of the endocrine sytem, including possibly death which can happen if the thyroid which balances the endocrine system is severely affected or disabled.
As humans age, we DO lose our hair. This is especially common on the arms and legs. Michael bono discusses this phenomina at length elsewhere on this site, so I’ll let you hunt that information down for yourself.

Seana

#16

Hello, Iluv2zap

I did not mean to offend anyone. I simply did not know how to say, to me it sounded correct not that I was trying to offend anyone. Please, take my apology for that and please, if you do not mind let me know what is the correct way of saying it. I was just thinking of how to resolve the unwanted hair problem in women. Besides, I am first generation immigrant, “I do not speak english”:slight_smile: I say and write weird and funny things. Lot’s of times people contact me telling, your grammar is off, correct this or that which funny and sad. Sometimes I feel I will never be able to speak correctly, but I am trying:).

Thanks for reference to Mike Bono. I love his books about spider veins. I’ll go over and read of what he has to say about hair loss in aging people.

However, what I was referring was that humans may lose the hairs on the hands and legs or as they age but I observed the phenomenon when they are younger. Some individuals will just wax and hairs will disappear. Or wax few times and heir will disappear. There are people with that kind of hormonal chemistry in their bodies. So, I was trying to understand what that was or is. I think, in one interview even Kate Winslet mentioned that her hairs gave up on her private parts after waxing too much or something like that. Anyhow, it’s a still puzzle for me.
Or another case:
I met few elderly ladies in my office who lost hairs in underarms as they aged without doing anything.
I did not do enough digging about this. I will keep reading and looking.

#17

here’s one excerpt to get you started:

As for suggestions on proper etiquette in language, I point to my first response. They are a transngender Person. They are not a “transgender” . To speak of them in this way objectifies them, and no person regardless of social group or status, wants to be thought of as an “object” . It opens us to discrimination and it’s something a large number of transgender people tae objection to. For the same reason a person of African descent doesnt wish to be identified as “black” they are a person first, regardless of skin colour. Does this make sense?

I dont have any comment on reduction due to waxing. In my experience the only place this is likely to happen is perhaps with some eyebrows, but is generally not the case on any other body area.

Seana

#18

Thank you, Seana:) Yes, makes sense, I can refer like: Transgender Girl, transgender people, transgender community etc, right?
I never called my clients transgender though not because I thought it was wrong it’s just situation never presented. When they come into my office they usually say, “I am transitioning” and we go from there. I always referred them by their first name, so in my life experience it never came up and I never thought about it. Well, thank you anyway for the heads up:)

#19

Depends on the laser they are using. I use a Cynosure Apogee Elite. The starting point for the yag on a Skin Type 2 would be 50 joules with 20 pulse width using a 10 mil hand piece.
As for the radiation issue…do you use a cell phone, computer, micro wave or wifi?
I use both modalities…laser and Electrolysis, so I have no biases. Electrolysis works and so does Laser. It’s all about using the appropriate modality to get the client the most effective treatment at reasonable costs.