past posts here do indicate that laser can turn a few hairs white. most of the time though, people just start paying a lot more attention to the area and one the dark hairs are gone, the lighter hairs become a lot more noticeable. in my experience, the hairs that turn white usually fall out.
sesame31 - I also have hormonal issues and pretty bad facial hair and five o’clock shadow issues. I also take Met. Have you had your hormonal levels checked recently? Have you tried spirno? I am suspicious of a doctor evaluating your hair growth levels just by looking at it - to me that really requires bloodwork bc it can be so hard to tell if you have a lot of hormonal hair growth.
If you have severe facial hair the idea of letting it grow out and dealing with shedding can be horrible. I was horribly self conscious about my face after my first treatment - the “pepperspots” were insane and gave me a horrible perma-five o clock shadow and I had a horrible acne breakout, which I never do. But I started shedding and the acne went away and weeks and weeks later I really can’t believe how much hair is gone and the improvement. I will say that my hair definitely appeared to be “growing” at first, but it was just the beginning of shedding and that I took the advice of people on this board and exfoliated ALOT and that helps in ways I can’t describe. I used exfoliating cloths and would literally see the shedding hairs on the cloth. I still have many more treatments, but just wanted to give you my perspective because right after the treatment when I had all the pepperspots I thought “what have I done?” and “is this going to get better?” I think you should have seen improvement if your hormonal issues really are under control. Good luck!!!
I have never seen that happen in 10 years. I would love to see some pictures of that. I’ve seen people with black and white hair, end up with only white hair once the black hair is gone. I also have seen people end up with much finer hair, that has less pigment because it is finer. But I have never seen hair where the laser destroyed the melanocytes but left the hair.
Can we perhaps tone down some of the anti-laser rhetoric. I’ve seen a bunch of botched electrolysis. But I understand that that is not good electrolysis. At the same time, it feels like that same consideration isn’t given to laser. In other words, there are a lot of poor quality laser hair removal out there, but when done right by someone who knows what they are doing, the results are equally good for what it can do. And it can treat woman’s faces quite well.
I don’t like seeing a new laser hair removal center on every other street corner. Most of them are in it because they think it is an easy way to make a buck (but it’s not) and James’ analysis of the economics is not far off. Plus, there is also a “let’s sell timeshares” mentality. Most of the places that sell packages are selling timeshares.
An interesting thing to do is to find out how many people work in the center. A place that is aggressively selling packages but doesn’t have more people lasering isn’t going to be able to keep up with the demand once all the people come in to have their treatments. Don’t buy from a place which doesn’t have at least a 3 to 1 ratio between people doing actual treatments and people doing other stuff like sales.
Finally, I would love to see a lot of these new places sprouting up get out of this business. It doesn’t help me at all and makes it harder for us to operate by siphoning off customers. I worry about going out of business because I have to pay for the overhead to be able to deliver the service. That means people to laser and people to train. But there is nothing I can do about this, except to try to stay in business until the inevitable shake out occurs. I believe that most of the places in business today will be gone in 3-4 years. I just hope I’m not one of them.
And I hope you are still around as well. 
Hi joyb! I am sorry you have experienced the whole 5 o’clock shadow thing. I cannot express the pain, not physical, that this causes.
I have had my levels checked recently and things were good. I am maxed out on the glucophage at 2000 mg. I have tired the spiro in the past but before starting the glucophage and did not see any improvement. Both Dr.'s used some sort of plastic card against my face to get an idea of the growth. There are markings on the card but it’s not an exact count or anything.
If I ask about the spiro again will this interfere with getting rid of the hair though? I am on a mission. One way or another this stuff is coming off.
As of today, the black hair and spots are noticeably different than even a week ago. There are fewer dark hairs but still not anywhere close to clear. I would almost be able to tolerate this improvement! However, the hair that is remaining is growing faster than ever. By mid-morning it is as long as it use to be after 24 hours of not shaving. Plus the white hairs are just growing like mad. They are really noticeable as even my little niece asked why I had white whiskers yesterday. Great. Crawl in the hole time.
For the poster that has not seen the white hairs I am living proof it’s bad, really bad.
This is a question further proving my ignorance on the subject! If the hair is treated with IPL, then shaved, and stops growing back for a week or so, but then resumes growing at a much slower pace this is working correct? My arms and legs are doing this.
I have a consultation for electrolysis on Wednesday so thank you Jim for the rec!
did you read the FAQs? the hair is not GROWING in the 3 weeks after your treatment. It’s coming out to shed. It should start falling out at week 1.5-2 or so if the treatment was effective. you can clip the hair meanwhile.
can you take pictures and post here?
Updating!
I posted on the electrolysis forum about my recent appointments with Cassie in Chicago and she is fantastic.
I have, what I consider, to be very good clearance on my chin and upper lip.
My thoughts right now are that the IPL was some what effective in slowing down the growth as I am a bit perplexed right now on how much hair is actually on my face!
Even if I had purchased real laser services, I think the combination of laser and electroylsis seems to be essential for me.
I am going to look for a real laser to remove hair on bikini area, my butt, and underarms.
I will keep updating both threads to track the progress.
Thank you for the support and help here!
Sounds like a good plan. I like the combination of modalities for some cases. Electrolysis for the face and laser for the certain areas of the body will most likely be a very speedy and effective plan. At least you have a great electrologist to permanently destroy hair follicles that laser can’t get in the end for those body areas mentioned.
Dee
I have a couple of questions regarding Laser. While I am not an expert on laser, but have considered training in the field. My understanding is that there are about five different wavelengths of different types of lasers. Each wavelength is best to a certain depth of the skin. If this is true, why are not laser operators checking hair depth to determine which wavelength of laser would be best for the client?
One client I am currently treating, has somewhat dark skin, red hair, and after 3 laser treatments, all the hair lost pigmentation. Thus leaving very thick deep white hairs. I needed to use full depth of my probes to get down to the depth the hairs papula’s were at. This person was obviously not a prime candidate for laser, yet sold her a contract for X number of treatments. She ended up having to break her contract in order to come and get proper electrolysis care. She is doing wonderful now in getting her hair removed. The laser place was trying to force to to pay over $2400 additional because of the contract. Even though the services were not as promised. I informed client I would write a letter explaining services by laser were not working and why, and with that the place is now backing down on their demand for the additional funds.
She tells me that no one, ever checked her hair type, depth or anything. In fact, demanded hairs be shaved as close as possible before coming in. So obviously, they had absolutely no idea what kind of hair they were trying to treat.
What are the standards used by most operators of Laser Centers to optimize laser treatments on their clients?
The pigment in red hair just doesn’t respond to laser treatment because the lasers operate in the red end of the spectrum. I would also tend to be a little skeptical about the laser turning the hair white from red just because I have never seen that happen in thousands of treatments. I would want to also look at other issues.
As far as the wavelength, there are only four wavelengths plus IPL which is a broad band of wavelengths. It is true that longer wavelengths tend to penetrate deeper, but depth of penetration is also a function of spot size. So the choice of what wavelength is not really based on depth of hair. The choice of wavelength is really based on a number of factors, but primarily the amount of melanin in the skin. This is to prevent a reaction from that melanin absorbing too much pigment.
I have seen pigment loss in both redheads and brunettes. On some people some of the hair becomes clear. At this point, the hair is more felt than seen from conversational distance, unless it is thickand allowed to grow long. One might have some normally colored hair, and then some that are white, and then some that are clear.
Of course, a LASER operator would not be looking at the skin through any magnification, so these details might not be noticeable at treatment time.
SSlhr,
I saw first hand the loss of pigment in this client. So I do know that it happens. The answer does not explain why laser operators do not bother to even check out minor things like hair depth etc prior to having a client sign long term contracts. The client I have experience with, had so few hairs with pigment left in them that they were almost impossible to find. The hair diameters were easily greater that 0.06, as they were bigger around than my largest probes. So they were not velous hairs. These hairs were observed with magnification as I use Loupes in my practice.
To state that the amount of light energy on a certain spot changes the depth is in my point of view concerning. MY point is that wavelength is a very major point of concern, and operators ignore it, just because they personally may not have the other wavelengths of machines available. Where a referral to someone else might very well be in the clients best interest.
James;
Hairs would not be noticeable at time of treatment, as they require clients to show up clean shaven so that nothing is visible prior to treatment.
Another point does not seem to have been brought up before. Hair requires a blood supply in order to have pigmentation. No blood supply = no pigment. No pigment means laser will not work. What happens if germinative cells are only injured and not killed? While deeper germinative cells were not affected. The result is Hair Grows from an even deeper skin depth that may or may not have a blood supply. In essence, the hairs have moved deeper than the laser can now reach. To keep attempting to perform laser treatments on this person is not only not going to work, it is only hurting the client.
It is possible to kill these deep hairs with electrolysis, but I have to admit, I would not mind having some extra long probes for some of them.
Granted, every laser treatment I’ve had, and the laser school I attended, were all laser-electrologists, but they all used magnification, be it by lamp or eye wear, especially during the consultation. I’ve always assumed every laser operator used magnification at some point. 
I am with you on that one. I have had some clients whose hairs seem to have made some interesting adaptations, and longer probes for some of them would have made a difference. Others showed up with all their follicles curved, or even a shingling effect where the skin covered the hair opening from a certain angle. Of course, these instances can’t be said to happen with any known percentage of occurance. I just know the people who had them paid for something, and then had to pay me to do more work than I would have had to do had they come to me in the first place. I, of course allow that some people would have come to me with less hair to work on if they had LASER first, just that one never knows which result one will end up having. That is the chance one takes.
[quote=“Choice”]
Granted, every laser treatment I’ve had, and the laser school I attended, were all laser-electrologists, but they all used magnification, be it by lamp or eye wear, especially during the consultation. I’ve always assumed every laser operator used magnification at some point. [/quote]
I have had LASER consults where the person just wanted to get me on the table and fire up the machine. Unless those eyeshad glasses are “Terminator Ray Bans” with the computerized magnificaiton and digital readout ala Arnold Swartzenegger, they just eyeballed my skin.
But like we keep saying, finding someone good in your neighborhood can be difficult. I imagine my just being dropped into some city and getting a random consultation would be… not much better than the average person who opens the phone book 
I am with you on that one. I have had some clients whose hairs seem to have made some interesting adaptations, and longer probes for some of them would have made a difference. Others showed up with all their follicles curved, or even a shingling effect where the skin covered the hair opening from a certain angle. Of course, these instances can’t be said to happen with any known percentage of occurance. I just know the people who had them paid for something, and then had to pay me to do more work than I would have had to do had they come to me in the first place. I, of course allow that some people would have come to me with less hair to work on if they had LASER first, just that one never knows which result one will end up having. That is the chance one takes. [/quote]
you also have to consider the fact that neither you or these people have any idea of what their hairs were like before they came to you, and whether laser treatments “caused” the way their hair grows or their hair always grew like that.
Saying that the hairs has always been like that, just confirms my comments even more. There is absolutely no laser that is going to penitrate to the depth that the hairs grew from when they did come to us. If a laser operator had pulled just one or two hairs, they would have seen that it was pointless to perform laser on these people. But then they would not have been able to talk these people into their long term contracts.
I am commenting that too many laser operators are not looking after the clients well being. I do not know of a single laser client, who went to have hair removal, and had them refered to a different facility as the other facility had equipment that would handle their hair problems better.
I do get that from doctors, where they will either refer to someone else or at least send to someone for a second opinion. I only perform electrology, that is true, but when someone comes to me as asked if laser might be an option for them. I check out their hair depths, and pigment and ask questions about skin sunburns, and will let them know if that is an option for them. I do have someone, that is now going to laser, besides seeing me for Eye Brows. I certainly hope you do not recommend laser for eyebrows.
The thing is, I give a better consult than most if not all laser facilities. I have been told that I take a much better Medical History than any other electrolysis or laser place around. Maybe that is because of my Medical Assisting training. Now if she comes back with the deep hairs, I can say for a fact that it was Laser, but I do not expect that, as I know she is a likely candidate for laser to work for her.
I am curious why you state that as I would disagree that there are hairs that no laser can reach because they are too deep. What depth are you speaking of? I do agree that not all lasers can reach very deep. Some can’t.
Also, I am not sure I understood your previous comment about wavelength and spot size. Could you clarify it? Are you saying that spot size doesn’t matter?
Also, I am not sure that I could explain physiologically why a melanocyte (cells that produce pigment) inside a hair follicle would not function due to lack of blood supply while the cells that produce the keratin for the hair would. Also, I am not sure that I understand how one can destroy pigment cells (melanocytes) without destroying the rest of the follicular cells. I do think that we can partially destroy a follicle which means that both the follicular cells and the melanocytes are destroyed. Then when the hair starts to grow it comes out finer and lighter. Lighter because there are fewer melanocytes to make pigment. One thing I would really like is to see some photos of the hairs you are trying to describe. The ones without any pigment. If you wouldn’t mind taking a photo, I would appreciate it.
Finally, we actually have our clients come in for treatments unshaved. We shave them ourselves. This is so that we can see what the hair looks like and whether there is enough hair to treat.
Marthajoy can answer the above questions at her convenience, but I wanted to insert this in relation to the pigment concerns.
The following is from Keratin.com . Maybe laser hair removal should be added to this information.
Dee
[color:#CC66CC]"Environment, weathering and hair color changes
While the primary causes of hair color are due to our genes and their effects on the amount and type of melanin pigment production, there can also be changes in hair color due to environmental influences. The environment can affect hair in two ways, by physical action and by chemical reaction.
Chemical action on the hair is arguably becoming more of a problem with the increased frequency of chemical exposure that individuals encounter with modern living. Melanin pigment can be altered through interaction with acids and alkalis. Acid interaction darkens hair while alkali lightens hair color. Whether acid and alkali in air are present in high enough quantities to significantly interact with hair pigment remains to be determined, but acids and alkali are encountered in water supplies and as detergents in shampoos. Such exposure to acid and alkali solutions can affect hair color.
The effect of sunlight on hair can have a direct effect on color that may be accentuated in the presence of polluted air. With time, UV light degrades melanin pigment and bleaches the hair fiber. Black and dark brown hair may change into a lighter brown. Light brown and blonde hair can be bleached completely white with chronic sunlight exposure.
Hair color may seem to change as a result of physical actions on the hair or “weathering”. A healthy hair cuticle is fairly smooth and this gives hair a richer color. However, a poor cuticle is rough and flaky or sometimes the cuticle may be completely stripped away. This rough surface to the hair fiber results in much reflection and refraction of light. This gives an observer the impression that the hair color is lighter than it actually is. The color also has a dull dry appearance. Such physical weathering and consequent hair color changes most commonly occurs in people with heavily processed hair, those who use harsh detergents for washing, and those who excessively brush or otherwise manipulate their hair. In people with long hair the observer may see a color change from root to tip. The ends of the hair are the oldest hair and thus will be the most weathered hair. The hair roots are new hair and the cuticle here should be least damaged. As a result, the hair ends may seem to have a lighter color than the hair roots.
Bathing in salt water, whether it is sea water or high mineral salt containing tap water, can affect hair color. Whilst the salts dissolved in water might chemically interact with the pigment in hair, they may also affect the physical properties of the hair fiber. As hair washed in salt rich water dries out the salts may crystallize within the hair fiber and cuticle. This may physically break down the structural integrity of the hair and lift up the cuticle. The result may be weathered hair and an apparent reduction in hair color.
Some people are more susceptible to environment induced hair color changes than others as a result of secondary internal factors such as hormones and general genetic disposition. So while some people can wash their hair with strong alkali detergents with impunity, others with exactly the same hair color may find the same treatment significantly affects their hair color. "[/color]