Confused about electrolysis vs. laser

Hair Removal Methods Professional Electrolysis
#21

I would not say that I have a loyalty to any. If your question is what do I use most often, that would be MicroFlash, as my average client was born a male, and wants over 100,000 hairs removed before we part company, and I want to get that done as fast as possible, so my client can see the results, and get on with their lives. Some work must at least be started in blend or galvanic for various reasons, but when the hairs are down to thin, but noticeable in length, Flashing them out is the least painful, and also the quickest route. I make less money based on being paid by the hour, but I get more referrals because people actually finish, and do so in a reasonable amount of time.

Usually, when I zip through the desired treatment area in under 15 minutes, the person says, “Wow, that went so well, let’s start on this new area.” That is why you hear about people going to good electrologists for years and decades, they just keep starting new territory. (I have single clients that I have removed over 300,000 hairs from that one person’s body.)

#22

what i meant by “skin changes” is in terms of structure, color, etc. NOT in terms of how much hair is removed. that’s irrelevant in what we’re discussing and i was replying to.

no, LASER light is not damaging to the skin like UV rays are. Not all light causes cancer (they don’t even know for sure if ANY light or anything else does, they’re all estimates. that’s why you always see studies pinpointing something that they supposedly determined causes cancer, and then a year later they retract their statements. my personal opinion is that anything unnatural probably contributes to causing cancer in some way or another. any kind of chemicals you expose your body to. but that’s besides the point of this discussion, especially that in this day and age of technology, we’re exposed to tons of things that potentially cause many things, most of which we’re probably not aware of yet). By your logic, electricity should cause cancer too since it’s a “light”, right?

second, laser targets DARK pigment. There is nothing in your body or skin layer that is dark besides the hair at the level of penetration of hair removal lasers. By the same token, shooting down a chemical or heat into each and every follicle and disturbing the skin in the same spot contunuisly for electrolysis is probably not the healthiest thing either. Basically, the only healthy thing is to walk around with all your hair and not touch it. That’s obviously not an option for anyone on these forums. So, they should have all the information with which they can go and make their own decisions of what they want to do to their bodies. Whether someone would rather wait for hair to shed from laser or have an irritated bumpy face after an hour-long electrolysis treatment is also up to them. We’re just here to provide information on what happens with each.

#23

Laser has never been proven to be permanent. End of story. When laser first was introduced, here in San Diego there were about twenty places offering ‘Permanent Hair Removal’ with Laser. Now that the public has became more wise, These places ALL have stopped using the ‘Permanent’ in their advertising, and have greatly diminished in number. Today, there are only a few offering laser hair treatment, and none, no matter what type of laser is used, claim any permanent effects.

Basically, these people still touting Permanent Laser Hair Removal are trying to get your money. It has been around long, long enough to at least have ONE study done to prove it’s claims, but this has never been produced. Lasers that were used for hair removal are now being retrofitted to be used for bruise and pigmentation removal. In this capacity they do have some use.

Go with electrolysis. It has been PROVEN to be permanent.

And as for people that constantly argue and debate in the Laser forum endlessly, I mean like several posts a day, day in day out. Do you really think these are just normal people surfing the net dropping in? No, these are hard sell individuals trying to keep the scam alive.

#24

“By your logic, electricity should cause cancer too since it’s a “light”, right?”

NO- electricity MAKES light. (when thats what you use it for.) Laser IS a light and has not had a single machine in use long enough to test its long term treatment effects as far as cancer… electrolysis has been around long enough that the first few people would be over 100 years old… Its proven not to cause cancer by now! when they have one machine thats results are so good that theres no need to change it (I mean the way it works and what it does, not to change it just to make it more convenient for the operator or more attractive in a sales pitch) and that one machine has been used long enough that several people can be counted as “healthy” 50 years later- then by all means… you can use it on me then! They’re all just being tested right now and I dont want to be a statistic. If other people want to than by all means… but A very vague promis of a “reduction” which in most cases its a very small reduction- is not worth it to me. Also, if they grow back finer and as vellus hairs, thats not a success- once left untreated (because fine vellus hairs are often not picked up by laser) they could just grow back into terminal hairs and make a laser operator more money when they do. KILL the hair- dont risk it growing back from infancy! you think its results- but its just a matter of time before it all comes back and they tell you its new follicles or a hormone change… hmmmmm…

#25

I think thats an awesome technic James… Like I said, I am a student and Im still learning… I know all the book smarts but Im still learning how to apply it to treat each case. (Im sure thats learned through experience once you get past a certain point) Im studying the Hinkel book and Michael Bono’s book. I dont need info on the currents and the machines themselves… just which cases to apply them to so that its not just effective, but fast. I dont need effectiveness, I need speed! I want fast and permenant! Any books you think I should read?

#26

Mantaray. Your posts are redundant, ridiculous, and pathetic. My documented treatment diary is obviously a way to keep the scam alive. Especially, when I’m getting electrolysis treatments and have a diary on that as well. Get a life. Everyone here has all the facts. I’m not trying to sway people one way or the other. That’s what both of you are trying to do, sway people to electrolysis that is. I say pick one based on YOUR needs and what YOU consider important to you. NOT what Mantaray, armedwithshoes, etc think is in your best interests. Btw, the only people who actually DO endlessly “hard sell” people are armedwithshoes and James etc, on electrolysis that is – and as you stated, of course it’s in their best interests as they’re in the business. People who talk about laser being an effective method in specific situations are those who actually got RESULTS from it and not involved in the business AND they’re the same people who DON’T bash electrolysis, but believe in both. Don’t you find that amusing?

#27

La(ser)girl,
I have read your posts and felt your hostile overtones for some time now. I have to jump in finally and say I think you have gone a bit too far calling someone else’s posts pathetic. We all know that you passionately defend laser treatments as safe and effective when done properly. However, that is yet to be proven like electrolysis. That is all people are saying. It makes me suspicious that you are so defensive. Why do you feel personally attacked? Whay do you feel the need to personally attack others? This post is starting to remind me of the name-calling battle you and Vanessa80 were in. I can’t help but note the common denominator. . .

#28

I had a small triangular patch on my lower back lasered with GentleLase back in 2000. Today, the area is still totally clear of hair, every hair. I wonder how many more years I’ll have to wait before it can be decided if this was permanent.

#29

you should read the back and forth with Mantaray on the laser portion. then, you’ll see where this is coming from. and vanessa80 was absolutely rude from the start. i don’t “attack” anyone personally. i only respond in a personal manner when someone else does towards me…like Mantaray did once again here – read his last 2 lines. that was a personal attack that I was responding to. I think I’m allowed to respond to that.

either way, I don’t defend one thing or the other. the fact remains that there are plenty of people who have had good results from laser, as NoHair jumped in and pointed out here. there is no need to bash it by people who haven’t tried it themselves or haven’t had good results due to their lack of research before doing it. it’s not perfect technology for everyone, so people need to do research for results. it’s of course a lot easier to blame the technology 100% after the fact than accept the blame for one’s lack of effort in research. that’s the frustrating point here.

#30

Mantaray. Your posts are redundant, ridiculous, and pathetic.

Well, actually, 1) I haven’t posted in some time, 2) I never even named you, 3) My posts are from scientific fact, 4) I never attack anyone, 5) you consider me a threat because of the plainspoken common sense I back myself up with, 6) Have corrected you in an area you consider yourself an expert, and 7) I’m appalled the tactics you employ to try to discredit people. Calling people pathetic, saying they have issues, saying injuries were freak occurences, presenting diaries that really don’t carry much proven fact. I mean, who is more trustable? An anonymous name on the internet with diaries? Or a funded university research study?

The laser dream is dying. People are wiser. The clinics offering ‘LHR’, if you want to call it that, are just trying to pay off the $50,000 it costs them to buy the equipment. People shouldn’t be mislead. This is a person’s health we’re talking about here.

Mantaray
I’ve been there. I know the facts.

#31

Laser doesn’t cause any skin changes. That’s like saying electrolysis causes skin changes.
-lagirl

Who are you to even insinuate this! You can’t possibly put a statement out there like this without doing clinical research. I’m disturbed by such wild scientific haphazard conjecture. You cannot make these assumptions that it doesn’t cause skin changes. It does. We have seen photographic proof that laser can cause skin damage. I have experienced it myself! And it is not saying the same thing as with electrolysis. This is some kind of beauty shop science that carries absolutely no reason.

Mantaray

#32

Now you’re just taking things out of context by pasting only a part of the statement. here’s what I said if you didn’t read it:

Laser doesn’t cause any skin changes. That’s like saying electrolysis causes skin changes. Sure, if either a laser operator or an electrologist doesn’t know what they’re doing, then they can cause issues. If a waxing lady doesn’t know what she’s doing, she will cause burns and bruising too. Noone says waxing causes skin changes. If you’re looking at 2 professionals who know what they’re doing, neither will cause any issues with the skin.

Where are the studies that disprove the effectiveness of laser? You’re making up evidence that supposedly exists when it doesn’t. Post a link. I’ve posted the links to the studies that show that it does and here is one again:

http://www.dr.dk/nyheder/htm/programmer/kontant/haarfjerningrapport.pdf

  1. I haven’t posted in some time, 2) I never even named you, 3) My posts are from scientific fact, 4) I never attack anyone, 5) you consider me a threat because of the plainspoken common sense I back myself up with, 6) Have corrected you in an area you consider yourself an expert, and 7) I’m appalled the tactics you employ to try to discredit people. Calling people pathetic, saying they have issues, saying injuries were freak occurences, presenting diaries that really don’t carry much proven fact. I mean, who is more trustable? An anonymous name on the internet with diaries? Or a funded university research study?

And as for people that constantly argue and debate in the Laser forum endlessly, I mean like several posts a day, day in day out. Do you really think these are just normal people surfing the net dropping in? No, these are hard sell individuals trying to keep the scam alive.

Now, to answer above (apparently I need to paste your statements verbatum in quotes so that it is obvious when you’re making things up as you go along): 1) Yes, you haven’t posted in a few weeks. You only come to post banter against any post by anyone who’s gotten results from laser. 2) the quote #2 above is obviously targeted at me, RC2001, BRR, etc who actually got results from laser and help others make informed decisions to actually get results. 3) None of your posts have had ANY valid links to any scientific facts or studies. This “fact” is made up, again. Feel free to post them. We have yet to see them. 4) Once again, the statement #2 in quotes above is an attack. 5) I don’t consider you anything. I don’t need YOUR results to be happy with mine and I got great results, so technically I could care less that you didn’t. But I am concerned about others making the best decision to actually get results that you didn’t due to your shortcomings. The only reason I’m here. 6) I don’t consider myself an expert, but apparently I researched and knew enough to go with a better laser and actually got results. Expert or no expert, I got results, and you’re upset that you didn’t 7) I called your posts pathetic because …refer to #1. I didn’t say you have issues. Once again a made up “fact”. And yes, laser doesn’t cause pigment issues. It CAN, but with proper treatment, it doesn’t. If you are getting pigment changes, you’re not being treated correctly. And once again, you have posted no valid studies. The only thing you ever posted was the story about Softlight, which was the very first laser in 1995!! And it didn’t even use the technology that’s being used now, in addition to being banned within 2 yrs. All this is clearly stated on Andrea’s site anyways. The one that I posted above is dated Dec 2004.

#33

I love how you like to blame poor results from laser on a “lack of research”. I can assure you that I did my research and went to the most reputable dermatology office in Atlanta that specializes in laser. I researched the internet prior to treatment and never found one instance or mention of laser triggered growth. It wasn’t until after it happened to me and I googled that very specific phrase that I found this forum. I was horrified upon learning that this was a possibility, especially after the “best” assured me it must be hormonal (which after much expensive endocrinology work and NO other problem hair areas it is NOT hormonal). I feel so tricked! How much “research” is reasonable? How are consumers supposed to know to specifically look for side effects by name that are rare? I guess it was also my responsibility to have googled “laser induced arm falling off” or “laser induced deafness” prior to treatments just in case. There has to be some accountability on these practitioners to disclose the true possibilities to their patients!

#34

research doesn’t involve listening to a biased source like the self-proclaimed reputable clinic you’re talking about whose main goal is to sell you a treatment. research involves researching at the library and on the Internet, finding forums like this and medical research etc from sources who have nothing to gain from whether you get good or bad results. so, yes, you should have just typed in “laser hair removal forum” (like I did actually before starting any treatments and spending thousands of dollars) and have read this information beforehand. of course, it’s a lot easier to judge by looking back. most of the people who come to these forums do exactly what you did unfortunately, FIRST trust someone who has invested interest in their money, and then come looking for answers elsewhere once they see that their responses and results are not satisfactory. if more people came and read at least the FAQs before starting treatments, it would probably eliminate at least half of negative experiences you read about here.

#35

You know what… Yes. I am going into electrolysis because I want to make money. everyone wants to make money. Im honest I can admit that. HOWEVER, I want to make my money honestly and provide the best product possible. I didnt just say, “hey, I want to take poor hairy peoples money…” (and before you jump, Im not saying you do either)I decided after suffering from facial hair (not peach fuzz… 80 unit hairs- to those in electrolysis) since I was 11 years old. I spent everyday hiding my face, tweezing… when I went to sleepovers I was the only one who wouldnt let anyone give me a “makeover,” when people told me secrets I ducked my face into my shoulder in case I had missed some while plucking and up to my 21st birthday I never let any of my boyfriends touch my face or neck, I would never lay my head in his(on digital cameras) I WAS TERRIFIED…I know how people feel and it isnt about money- its about RELIEF without risk. And yes, I have tried laser and it just so happened it was nuvo and yes they did go down for scarring and skin damage and the hair growing back and all this other crap… so “I just had a bad experience” with them. my point was not that it couldnt work (it can Im sure) but what works for one person does not work for another- the perfect laser for you may not work for me… Im sure there were some people that left nuvo that were happy and still are… what Im saying is happy or not, who knows if its safe??? and you could have to try alot of different lasers to find what works and none of them are FDA approved for anything more than hair REDUCTION they are not approved as safe for future health issues (thats what they are testing NOW- ON YOU!) you are getting them that statistic that they might use if- IF they make it 50 years from now… if thats worth it to you to “reduce” hair fine! I understand! They say obese people fantasize about cutting off their fat with knives, I considered cutting off parts of my hairy face when I was fifteen- if your that gung-ho for results- BE A LAB RAT. IF (note I say IF) I honestly believed laser could safely save someone from feeling like I did and the results were 100% permanent I would go to school to be an RN and I would operate a laser on an 11 year old… even on MY OWN 11 year old (if I had one) But I dont feel that way. I have had both. yes, I went to a bad provider for my laser- I was their statistic… until they are passed the testing phase they are in, it may only be a matter of time before anyone becomes a statistic just like I did. Electrolysis works for just about everyone. (unless its a hormone imbalance) its researched over a long enough period of time that it is known to be completely safe- no future surprises, backed by YEARS of tried and true practice. Yes, it takes longer- but my electologyst quickly became a very close friend to me and I did not care how long it took her because I trusted her. Sometimes she saw me out of charity because I was young and it was nearly 2 hours to clear my face and I couldnt always afford it. But she taught me two things… 1)Electrolysis is permanant and 2)how much a difference an hour of the right persons time can make on someones self worth.
Yes, I plan to make money, Yes I plan to volunteer with the cancer society for charity (some cancer cases are treated with hormones that cause hair growth on children and women)NOT BECAUSE IM “PUSHING” A PRODUCT but because I want OTHERS to feel good about WHAT I DO. Im in this to give results… in 50 years if there is a proven SAFE laser, excellent- I will use it to help people faster! BUT RIGHT NOW THERE IS NOT!! that- is why I push electrolysis- its nothing personal about YOU (lagirl since we have resulted to naming names)- its everything personal about ME and I plan to better someones life with that! please think before you type because I can tell by your responses that your not being understood and its not because we arent reading what you type. When you say something “doesn’t cause skin changes” Im going to rightfully assume from what you type that: that is what you meant. when you say “electricity is a light” Im going to assume that you think so (instead of light being a product of electricity)I am finding now that you dont really think that way - you just dont say what you mean. please dont be upset if I “take things out of context” you when you dont say what you mean! think before you speak. when you argue a point people do listen WORD for WORD. use the ones you mean so you wont get mad if I listen to you.
Im not personally out to get you, I JUST KEEP TRIPPING ON YOU! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

#36

Oh, and for the millionth time… IM SELLING NOTHING… IM A STUDENT… and aside from people spending money on the treatments I can honestly say Im NOT making money for “pushing”. I will never see any of these peoples money, so I have no reason to push or frown upon anything for my own personal gain… So you can just forget the idea that its about money when it comes from my mouth. Just out of curiosity lagirl (and you dont have to answer if you dont want because its totally off the subject- but as far as my point of future side effects, its not off subject) but do you tan? (in a salon, booth or in lay in the sun?) and if so- do you think that is safe too?

#37

Do you even see anyone else’s point at all? Look at what I am saying and from a place of reason, not defensiveness, self-righteousness or judgement, do you understand the other side of the coin? Hindsight is always 20/20, so when I travel back in time, I will surely appreciate your advice on which specific phrase to google.

#38

Lagirl, I really, really feel so upset at how you come into this forum, and just spread your self-serving agenda. This is the Electrolysis forum. This is for people that know better. This forum is for people that don’t, or no longer, fall for scams. You have no place here pushing your agenda of Beauty Shop Science. You argue and carry on as if you’re on some crusade. I come to the Electrolysis forum because I have no wish to hear about the multi-million dollar scam that laser is.

I have posted the links you speak of. Am I just supposed to keep posting them over and over?

You come off incredibly obtuse. Go get a science book and read what a ‘nanometer’ is. Go read about wavelength.

You do consider yourself an expert because you go around recommending lasers and strengths to people you haven’t even seen in person. This is foolish and dangerous.

You post far, far too much to just be a casual person being treated by laser. There’s more to your involvement that I think you’re not letting onto.

By the way, You keep saying that I treated by inept operators. One was an operator that had years of experience, the other was the physician who owned and operated the clinic, the third was a technician that the owner recruited out of many applicants. You just don’t seem to understand, like others, I did my research. What is with you? You justr don’t seem to understand that laser is a half-baked science that has failed.

You target me because of my scientific background and that fact that I point out gross, blatant errors in your thinking.

You take a populist stand, trying to make your opinion and experience (?) seem like it’s the norm, and those in disagreement are wrong.

My ‘Shortcomings’? Umm. I really don’t know where to begin with this. I really think you should back up at this point.

Hmm. RJC, BRR …Okay, that’s two. Three including you. Have you counted how many have said their hair grew back? Go do that.

Face the facts. Laser is no longer considered anywhere near permanent. Sometimes it’s effects only last weeks, not even months!

Great fads in American History:
The Hula Hoop
The Mood Ring
The Pet Rock
Laser Hair ‘Removal’ …‘Look Ma, I’m shedding!’

#39

Hi,

I have read most of the postings and am still confused! I have done lots of research and had decided to begin with Nd:Yag laser because I have medium skin, Type IV to V with dark brown har. I have some dark thick hairs on chin and a couple on cheeks. But I am able to bleach the other hairs on my cheeks, chin and sideburns. But this still looks very fuzzy and unclean. In a previous posting, it was stated that eletrolysis is the only way to go for upper lip! Is that true? I am interested in permanently reducing the thinner hairs as well as the thicker ones. What do you guys recommend?

Thank You.

#40

Hi Meena.

For such a small area as the upper lip, electrolysis would offer a more certain outcome, permanency. We usually agree here that LASER could be a first step for a large area like the back, followed by electrolysis to get the clinger-oner’s, those hairs that won’t respond to LASER. Electrolysis is “KING SUPREME” for eliminating any size hair, any color of hair that happens to grow on any color of skin. Truly!

The real decision lies with who you will trust to do your work, whether you choose LASER or electrolysis. Get recommendations if possible.

Dee